s-fish makes a point, yanoer.
In addition to his comment, I think that the Castine and the Sea Lion, compared in adverse contions for tracking (wind, waves, etc), would show a distinct difference.
S-fish, your profile pictures are funny as hell!
Yep
Watch any Tsunami Ranger videos? Surf kayaking videos? Skook videos? Look, I’m not against long kayaks. They catch waves better in open water and allow strong paddlers a greater range of speed. They are not as nimble in rock gardens, big surf, and knarly coastal rebound (clapotis) etc.
Funny, the woman who made those videos understands what I’m saying. She’s paddling a Romany these days on shorter journeys. That’s about a 13.5 ft. waterline… That’s probably gonna confuse some here…LWL. An Epic 16 probably is a “longer” boat than most 17-18 ft. greenland styled boats. Also QCC. But that’s another war apparently.
My rub is only with comments that are clearly off based… “anything under …is worthless.”
How does that guy define seaworthy? The kayak is just a tool, and my point is simply that shorter boats have their place, and in some sea states will outperform their longer brethren.
I don’t care what anyone paddles really. Maybe long kayaks help some of these guys deal with shortcomings elsewhere???
I propose a solution to the never ending
opinion. Kayaks should be 16’ long. Manufacturers, are you listening? Please stop making all kayaks that are not 16’ in length because these models cause people to argue about seaworthyness.
~wetzool
P.S. I see a lot of 16’ boats in This Is The Sea I, II and III. Just not in the expedition parts.
Tracking is a function
of hull design. Most recreational kayaks are designed to Trak very well via less rocker, defined keels, etc. Most boats in this thread track better than a Pintail, which is much longer. Directional stability is more complex than “longer = better tracking”. Manitou 14 tracks better than a Chatham 16.
Boats with finer length to beam ratios typically are more directionally stable, but not always.
Remember too that it’s whats in the water that affects tracking, and many shorter boats have LWL’s very close to some longer pointy enders, which BTW I like.
Good day all.
I aint got no skill. It’s the boat’s
design. Paddle a Castine and you’ll see. I don’t have the book learning to argue anything but my own experience. While we were in a bit of wind and waves on the Illinois River, me in my Castine and Bruce and Cooldoctor1 in their longer Calabrias, they were having a heck of a time with directional stability and the Castine practically kept istself on course. It’s hull design, not length.
The Castine has pretty sharp V bow and stern and is flat in the middle. It tracks very well. It’s certainly much slower than the Sea Lion with me paddling.
Ah, that is good to know
Do you think if the Castine was 17’ with the same V-hull design, would it even be better in tracking?
Point was, it’s the hull design, not the
length. The Castine might be a wallering pig if it was just stetched out with a long flat section in the middle. It may not track well at all.
My 12’ by 32" wide Poke Boat tracks much better than my 14’9" by 24" wide Isere. I would feel much safer in wavy conditions in the Isere because it handles waves better.
Yanoer is smarter than he realizes
If you stretched the Castine and kept the same cross-sectional profile you’d have excessive Frictional Resistance, and would also alter the displacement, and may not have better tracking.
No doubt, Yanoer
If the boat design is like having a built-in skeg, it will track well. Increasing the waterline length without increasing the displacement will help. Here is from John Winters: “The longer the boat is relative to its displacement the easier it will be to drive through the water.”
Keep reading Winters stuff
very smart guy. There’s a key part of that quote…“without altering displacement”
More on Winters’ "course stability"
Note “length” in terms L/B and L/H ratios in his write up.
http://www.qcckayaks.com/resources/controllability.asp
Can’t rule out length from the equation.
This thread is positive really
You have taken a step to understand rather than spew garbage from a brochure. Good on ya! Winters offers excellent info, as do others such as Shade, Broze, etc.
No one here on this thread has said anything against “length”. It has it’s merits, and is one of many variables a designer has to balance.
Winters would agree with me that all kayaks are compromises of said variables. The more specific a design, the less well rounded it will be. The more general, the less excellent it will be at a given task.
So, what you end up with is an understanding that design is specific to the itended use. One cannot assume that certain attributes make for the best kayak.
Winters does a great job of explaining the speed thing that confuses most. His almost direct quote is “The question is not which is the fastest boat, rather which is the fastest for a specific speed regimen.”
Thank you for making the effort to learn more. I believe the more you understand about hull design, the less black and white your thinking will become, and the more silly blanket absolutist statements will appear. Good paddling.
seaworthy?
Salty: I think you are right: you need to choose the boat for the things you want to do with it. You might like the surf and the rocks, others might like the open water passages. Some people might find your claim that a 13 foot boat is great for surf ridiculous and point to a 7 foot surf-shoe as the only real answer. Others might prefer the ride of an 18 footer in the surf. It really depends on how wild a ride you like.
The Coaster was clearly conceived and executed as an ocean playboat and not as an expedition boat. Since leon never really specified what he wants to use the boat he wants to buy for, it’s really hard to recommend one over the other or determine whether he should go with a shorter or longer boat.
Anyways, I’d be careful with defining the word “seaworthy” here. It might mean different things to different people.
Agree Tobi
My HP surf kayak is a lot more fun than any sea kayak in surf. Your point is mine…it’s all relative. The Coater is as long a boat as many 16 footers! LWL very similar.
Prijon Rudder/Skeg
You guys have touched on something I’ve been dealing with this weekend. I have a Prijon Eski, 16’-6" and it is a great boat. For me simpler is better and last month I took the entire rudder mechanism off the boat after paddling it for three years on and off with my two other boats. First time out the wind at my back got me to thinking skeg. So I’m sitting in my shop looking at the stern with the remaining rudder mount and figuring out how to make a kick up small skeg. The Eski is no longer imported to the U.S. It’s fiberglass and was too fragile to make the Atlantic crossing. It’s a shame, if you find a used one grab it.
try Cayuga 146
I was leaning toward the necky also, but went to a demo yesterday and the Cayuga was very impressive. It turned better, I think it was a little faster and very stable. The price was about the same and you can get it with a rudder. The 2007 weights less then 50lbs. Might try taking a look!
Agreed
When I asked Necky about the thigh pads on the Manitou 14 and rolling it this is what they had to say.
The adjustable ones used in the touring boats like the Chatham would work very well and are $92 (item #1517).