It's tough wading through several contradictory "Do it like me" pieces, all of which must work for those paddlers. Kinda like blind men and the elephant.
Kim is quite right, the pivot point moves forward with speed, with physics amplifying the stern's stroke, but there is more.
The reason tandem canoes invariably turn towards the bow's side is that stern paddlers often carry their blade behind their bodies and along the rail. This is a sweep, further enhanced by keeping the top hand inside the rails and then amplified by greater distance to the pivot point. [No, the bow paddler isn't "doing something" to make the hull turn towards her side.]
Keeping the top hand outside the rail, stacking the hands, and limiting rearward stroke travel to the knee if kneeling and mid thigh when sitting eliminates most stern paddler caused misdirection.
Another consideration is canoe trim. Tandems are horrible to handle when running bow down, so putting the "stronger", who is usually bigger, paddler in the bow without benefit of a sliding seat to trim the hull usually results in a problematical ride.
I've a previously published piece on the forward stroke[s] that may help. If interested, email me at charliewilson610@roadrunner.com
I disagree having paddled FreeStyle for 13 years and taught for 11.
The bow can accentuate a turn but cannot initiate it very well…in tandem FS when we do a bow sweep or a bow draw it is less to initiate the turn than to communicate the intention of “turn that way” to the stern person. What the bow paddler DOES do very well is keep the bow turning either with a carve or a plant after the stern has started to skid…You get a half a****d turn with just the stern working and a quarter with the bow working…you can easily do a u turn with no power strokes with both ends working if you have momentum.
Anyone who has ever tried to do solo maneuvers knows that to iniate a turn from the bow without skidding the stern first is frustrating. Turns just dont work without a good skid to loosen the stem. Most likely the boat moves more sideways than turning.
Charlie if your response is to me I realize you are the pro, but I think you are missing my point, or I missed the OP’s point.
He said that he had to keep correcting due to the bow paddler being weaker.
My bow paddler is also weaker than I am and it only stands to reason that the boat is going to turn in the opposite direction from my side if both of us are doing the same forward stroke.
Ok - I can agree with that I was thinking of more of moving water rather than freestyle, but either way, its definitely more effective for both paddlers to be working together.
even if you were the same strength and you both were doing absolutely spot on forward strokes parallel to the midline your craft would still veer away from the stern paddlers side. You are farther away from the pivot point. That is the reason for a corrective stroke from the stern.
In reverse the bow does the correcting. Physics is physics and a canoe is a sidewheeler in essence.
The couple that won the FreeStyle Nationals several years ago had the same problem. In a nutshell they in exasperation went to an instructor. Man “Tell her what she is doing wrong in the bow”. Then they did a demo paddle.
Instructor “She is doing nothing wrong…however you sir need to change a few things”… That launched a love of paddling and a couple that can make a canoe sing and dance in tadem…as one.
Because the man usually has more power he is the better engine and the engine is in the bow. There are two jobs to be done in a canoe. Develop power and develop finesse in going straight. Bow and stern. Often the woman is better at the latter. Sometimes womwn dont want to be in the stern; or because of the size mismatch if there is no gear to pile at one end of the canoe…the guy has to work really hard at not overcorrecting or sweeping his strokes while putting the pedal to the medal.
Bottom line is you are not overpowering her…you are doing something “off” and what might be minor error is magnified by your being in the stern and probably putting a lot of oomph in that error.
I disagree. Please explain that in the same light when I am paddling solo.
The other day I was in a C-1 race. About five strokes and switch. Then five strokes and switch, etc.
WHY? - Your physics must be different then mine!
I don’t care where the pivot point is. If the power paddler is in the stern, the boat will turn in the opposite direction from the side he is paddling on after a given amount of strokes.(assuming there are no correction strokes from either paddler)
Vectors… Maybe I need to go back and relearn high school physics, but as I see it:
If both paddlers are making proper forward strokes, parallel to the keel line, the force they exert on the boat is also parallel to the keel line.
The torque they exert on the boat will be the product of the force vector from their stroke and the perpendicular distance of that force vector from the “pivot point”. If both paddlers paddle with the same force at the same distance from the keel, with their stroke perfectly parallel to the keel line, the net torque is zero and the boat will not turn. Regardless of how far fore or aft each paddler is from the pivot point. One of the paddlers could be sitting on the pivot point and the other on the stern – the vector free body diagram doesn’t change.
Wow, canoeing is confusing It seems that opposing viewpoints and terminology all can prevail at the same time.
A correction maneuver is different from a correction stroke except when it isn’t.
A bow paddler can or can’t initiate a turn, or maybe he can or can’t depending on whether the water is moving or not (relative to what?).
The power should be in the bow and the finesse in the stern. No, wait, I have an opinion on this one. In years of running technical whitewater and slalom gates, I formed the impression that the better and more finessed paddler should be in the bow, responsible for making the immediate tactical decisions and boat moves, with the lug in the stern (me) mostly providing power, complementary leans and turning strokes, and gross directional changes. I didn’t invent that viewpoint; it was “suggested” to me by more experienced folk – mainly including my bow paddler.
Of course, it is different and more difficult in whitewater because the paddlers use current differentials, velocity shadows, wave faces, wave troughs, and gravity to maneuver and turn the boat. Perhaps that changes the elephant into a hippo, or vice versa.
It surely gets all bollixed up if the team doesn’t work together … which they rarely do … which is why somebody in Minnesota or New York or Florida first invented the divorce in 1880 … and then the solo canoe in 1980, after paddlers and people in general stopped getting married.
I agree with the poster who stated or suggested that the most effective and elegant way to propel a tandem flatwater canoe forward is the hut, hut Minnesota switch. Synchronized bentshafts flashing in the sunlight: beautiful.
More vectors If you’re doing draw or pry strokes (or correction strokes), then you’re absolutely right – the stern vector is farther from the pivot point and will have more turning effect, everything else being equal.
However, we’re talking about a forward stroke here. From a pure mechanics standpoint, the torque is proportional to the perpendicular distance from the pivot point to the force vector. For a “pure” forward stroke, this distance is the distance between your stroke path and the keel line (assuming the pivot point is somewhere along the keel). It doesn’t matter where you are along the keel line.
Now, of course, this is just looking at it from a simple high-school physics viewpoint. I don’t dispute that, most of the time, a tandem canoe will tend to turn to the stern paddler’s offside. Charlie Wilson gave an explanation earlier in the thread that would make sense – essentially indicating that the stern paddlers stroke is typically longer. There may be other factors relating to the fluid dynamics of the boat motion that play a role here. If so, I would be very interested in gaining a better understanding of what is going on.
and I have not seen you at any events instructing and sharing your knowledge.
There is no need for a divorce boat. Since you like credentials, I have as much experience as you in years. My husband and I paddle together and do long trips when we can.. communication is the key.
Flatwater and moving water are different in that there is an additional vector in moving water.
Of course in whitewater the bow leads..and the stern is obliged to follow to avoid disaster.
No, that misses the point. Kim's point is that the same thing would happen even if the weaker paddler were in the stern, and THAT is why her point about the pivot point shouldn't be brushed-off with an "I don't care". Another way of talking about pivot-point shift is to say that the stern "gets looser" with increasing speed, while the bow's position gets "tighter". Of course, putting the stronger paddler in the stern amplifies a boat-handling characterisic which is always present to some degree. When OP said he had to correct *because* he was the stronger paddler, Kim and Charlie simply put that statemtent into proper light, that being, being a stronger paddler only exaggerates what would happen in any case.
only true if The boat is going straight and your strokes are perfectly parallel. That’s not real life. As soon as ANY angle develops the distance from the pivot point comes into play.
I don’t understand much of this … Canoeing 501 course material. But here’s what I seem to have an intuitive grasp on: The bow is being driven like a wedge into clean water, making it relatively stable. The stern is following behind in much less less “stiff” eddy water. Hence, the bow will continue to drive straight with little deviation and the stern will quite happily move side to side in response to offset power inputs.
Right or Wrong? Your analysis follows the static model used by Bill Mason and many others. It is a contrivance developed to help paddlers get on the right track to learning good technique and it works well, but is not good physics.It is only a theoretical picture, a good one for learning purposes, but only that.
We can show that for displacement hulls a straight course can result only from a force directly on and parallel to the centerline (CL). Any force acting on a hull outside the CL will result in a turning motion. This creates several types of points but for our purposes let’s stick with pivot point (PP). We also know that in a canoe (or kayak) the PP will move in a direction opposite the path of the paddles. In the case of the tandem forward stroke the paddles move to the rear and so the PP moves forward of the midpoint. This is further from the stern paddler’s blade and thus creates longer leverage, overpowering the bow paddler’s force virtually every time. Also consider than the instant the strokes begin the CL starts swinging around the PP and those nice “parallel to the centerline” strokes become almost immediately non-parallel, actually swinging the CL toward the stern paddlers blade and turning into a stern draw increasing yaw even more. At this point some sort of compensation must be made, to correct the course, either in the form of a correction stroke or switching sides. I attempt to state these concepts in everyday language, in hope to be understood.
He just did share his knowledge but you don’t seem to like it.
Does he have to go to a special event to become a knowledgeable canoe paddler.
If you go back and read all the responses above you can see where he is coming from.
I would hate to be a newbie trying to learn after reading the above.
I posted a reply to the OP in regards to one of his questions and related my wife and my experience, and encouraged him to give it a try, and I got jumped on by the “experts”.
If we all enjoy paddling and want to share our experiences why turn it into a war because you think you know more than someone else?
I have some problems with Glenn’s post. I think it offers very little clarification, but his first remarks seem designed to further confuse the issue. Sarcasm is the last thing the OP needs. Also, how does throwing in so many very esoteric and technical terms help the OP or the majority of folks who read this forum? It seems to me to be merely self serving and adds greatly to the confusion he so criticizes. His contention that WW is different and more difficult is just plain wrong. I agree that it is different, but not necessarily more difficult. It just requires a different type of learning. Lastly, support of the idea that sit and switch and correction style are mutually exclusive is bad advice. A paddler should not be advised to choose between them, but rather that knowledge of both is beneficial. The previous points being overlooked in his post is that the physics dictates both styles and it is beneficial to be able choose one or the other depending on conditions, goals, and paddler preference.