I am . . .
. . . no problemo. Break into my house and die.
I’m pretty sure …
that isn’t what String meant because he served in the military. But, I’ll shut up and let him speak for himself on that score.
However, I do think that he brings up a good point. I think people who purchase a handgun for self-defense need to realize that means killing. The last thing someone needs to do is pull a gun, and then be unable to pull the trigger because they can’t handle the idea of killing another person. Too often, gun training stops with safe gun handling, legal aspects and shooting techniques. There isn’t enough emphasis on what a gun can and will do if used. It isn’t simply a hole in a paper target.
The other thing that I think isn’t emphasized enough in training or in this thread is avoidance. Many self-defense situations can be and could have been avoided with other less lethal means.
BTW, I do think people should have the right to own and carry weapons. Matter of fact, I can and do carry, but in very limited situations which I do everything to avoid.
Thank you,davbart. yes, I spent
seven years in the US Army ;a trained killer so to speak.Proficient with M-14 and M-16;familiar with several others.
The biggest threat I ever faced was some US Army troops who were a little off the reservation.I was unarmed and so were they , but there were 5. I talked my way out of that one.
I have been all over the backcountry in SC,Texas,Virginia,NC,Florida, and Tennessee and never felt really threatened.There are some dicey places, but if you go with even one other person and pay attention, no problem.
String, you managed to get to the heart
of it. Thank you.
What’s behind my skepticism
– Last Updated: Feb-28-09 9:30 PM EST –
I mentioned that I used to hang out with some people who were enthusistic hand-gun shooters. They had friends who were often very quick to tell amazing stories about how accurrately they could shoot a handgun, but when push came to shove, not once did it ever turn out to be true, even though none of those guys ever claimed to be able to hit a thing at 100 yards.
Have you been here long enough to see the dozen or so posts from people saying they used their Bell Wildfire in Class-III rapids with good results? Of course that's a pretty unsualy claim to make too, and since then, "thebob.com" has periodically asked for photographic proof that anyone has actually done such thing. So far there have been no takers, nor any willing to speak on the matter. That's an example of the same kind of skepticism, so don't take it personally.
As to "trying it myself", I'm not a handgun shooter, but I'm halfway-decent with a scoped rifle, and I am certain that I could NOT hit something that small at 120 yards with a hand gun. Maybe experience would prove otherwise, but it's just hard to fathom how something with terribly crude iron sights (not even a peep sight) and a pitiful muzzle velocity could be so accurate at that range. If hand-gun shooters were routinely accurate at 100 yards or more, would it make any sense that they do the vast majority of their practicing at the same target distances used by knife-throwers? I kind of doubt it (it would be too boring), which is another reason for being skeptical.
I think it is safe to say that none of
us want to see another human being killed, let alone by our own hand. I think it is also safe to say that under certain circumstances all of us would be willing to do it. The better run CWP classes spend more time on use avoidance and consequence of use than they do on the “hollywood/leathal weapon” stuff. I carry sparingly because I generally to do not want the hassle and risk, but mostly because I am willing to play the odds and let nature take it’s course. For those who don’t, god bless you and please get my back.
Bill
On Killing
"On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society" by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman.
Interesting book. Among other points, it makes the case that killing isn’t easy, even in combat, and that the military has had to work hard to overcome most recruit’s natural reluctance to kill. Learning to shoot isn’t the same as being able to kill. It’s one of the many factors contributing to PTSD.
On the other hand, survivor’s guilt in those who were unable to defend their loved ones against violent attack can be equally traumatic.
These are serious issues for anyone making the choice to carry firearms for self-defense. It should require more thought than a bumper-sticker slogan.
Yes, I was aware string served in the…
…military. String, thank you for your service to this country. I hope that you were one of those folks in Orwell’s quote that was ready to violence on other’s behalf.
Yes, it seems self-evident, but perhaps not, that every effort should be made to avoid using a firearm in any situation. If I go that route, I’ve severely limited my own options. There might be times when it becomes immediately obvious that using a firearm is the only option left. But the vast majority of the time, obviously other options should be explored. This kind of reasoning isn’t rocket science, it’s just basic common sense.
Seen it
Focus is right. It is not that hard to hit at 100 yds with a magnum handgun. I have seen it done numerous times and done it myself with an 8" bbl on a 44 mag. Smaller guns with out sufficient velocity require too much holdover to be reliable. Also the sights are usually not there on small carry guns. We used to shoot at and hit 1 qt oil cans at 50 yds with tuned 45 autos. 100 yds required too high a hold over with the rainbow arc of a slow moving 45. It could be done but it was more luck than skill.
“Combat range” is usually defined at 7 yds. There can be situations with a longer range but over 90% of defensive shootings occur at 7 yds or less. I can keep all my rounds in a 4" circle at that range at rapid fire even with a 2" snubby and I am not that great a shot. I do practice though and my handguns point naturally. I wont have a handgun that is not close to point of aim when I bring it up. Try looking at a target, close your eyes and bring the gun up. When you open your eyes, it should be on the target. If it isnt, get a different gun.
gbg , you quote …
… “and I’m certain I could NOT hit something that small at 120 yds. with a hand gun” … “Maybe experience would prove otherwise”
not a doubt in my mind , you COULD hit the tin can at 100-120 yds. … and again , no doubt , experience WILL prove otherwise … a firearm sight is a firearm sight , they all work the same , no rocket science here … if you get the chance , just go do it and have fun … like I said , won’t take long to figure it out !!
ps., … for best accuracy it’s much better to “think” the round off than to squeeze the trigger .
Someday maybe I’ll get the chance…
… to try. Thanks for being patient.
Maybe there’s no clear answer
My shotgun bought me some time in a nasty situation and allowed me an escape. An older captian I know kept thugs from boarding his vessel and bought time to get away. My brother, an ex-black ops guy who rides motorcycles all over North America had his friend threatened in the South. A pistol gave them time to get away. And I know of a few more similar stories.
I also appreciate the comments opposing firearms and understand the horror that can happen when it all goes wrong.
In the end I appreciate that it is an individual choice and it comes with responsibility. Many of my friends carry guns and are highly trained. As I read through all the posts and emotion I end up with being extremely glad I had that shotgun when I did. It’s impossible to say what would have happened otherwise, but I’ll tell ya’ll that when the mean drunks saw it at my side they retreated. It allowed me time to get away.
One thing my brother told me which I think string would agree with is that if you raise that gun you had better be willing to kill someone and empty the magazine in them. Hesistate and you’ll be dead, cuz the bad guy wont. In my case I never raised the gun, rather they saw it next to me, gave me the once over and took off. I see valid arguments on both sides.
I like the fact that we have the choice and I hope that never goes away. Perhaps with more gun experience I’d think differently but most highly trained gun folk I know fall on the side of ownership and the right to bear arms.
actually the biggest danger in kayaking
is accidental drowning. Maybe we should now go to the compulsory wearing of PFDs
Sounds like home
Down here in Texas that’s just a typical weekend at the city park.
Bill
– Last Updated: Mar-01-09 10:42 PM EST –
You need to re-read my posts. I NEVER said I could do it with a concealed carry weapon, an S&W 586/686 is a chunk of steel. I also NEVER said anything about concealed carry. I also said that I could hit a 6" TARGET at 100yds. Never said that I could hit that well while someone was shooting at me. Never had to and hope I don't ever need to find out. The point was made to imply that I am a darn good handgun shot so I am confident to protect myself if need be.
Tom
GBG
– Last Updated: Mar-02-09 12:11 AM EST –
Since you are someone who likes to analize details I'll give you some. Here is how to shoot 100 yd targets.
First you need a handgun that fits you perfectly.
Me, S&W 686 6" stainless with Pachmayr "Gripper" grips.
Second, you may need to fire hundreds of different loads until you come up with the load that works the very best in your gun. No factory ammo will do. My load for MY HANDGUN is as follows:
Bullet/ 158gr Hornady XTP SJHP
Powder/ 14.0 gr of Hodgdon H110
Primer/ WSPM
Case Length/ 1.283
COAL/1.590
Warm up at the range with 100 rds or so at 25yd position. Move to 100yd range and place some orange clay bird targets which are actually around 4" in diameter on the dirt backstop. Stand with feet shoulder width apart, thighs against the bench for steadiness. Bring revolver up with two hand hold, both eyes open and take a deep breath. Slowly release breath while concentrating on your target. As your target lines up with your sights carefully apply trigger pressure. 3-4 times out of 6 will that clay bird break. You may be hitting it directly or close enough that the dirt kicked up next to it will cause it to break equalling roughly 6".
Correct, nobody was shooting back at me and I couldn't tell you how I would shoot if they were. This is just the way it is. Geeze, my oldest son has taken deer at 75 yds with a .44mag revolver, plain old factory iron sighted. If your shooting buds are telling you it can't happen they must not have a lot of shooting experience IMHO. By the way, I hunt deer with a rifle, not a handgun. A rifle wins hands down in the consistant accuracy dept.
I think we need to pull the plug on this topic already. It's as simple as, experience tells you it can be done, or inexperience tells you it can't.
Tom
Risks
Great post and I couldn’t agree more
Tom, keep it in context. We were talking
– Last Updated: Mar-02-09 10:13 AM EST –
about the river murders in the U P last year and how you felt safe with your pistol. I have previously conceeded your point that you can shoot. My experience tells me that for people on this board and for people in general, a gun that is comfortable to carry or move around with will not hit 6" at 100 yards. I feel it diminishes the conversation to even discuss this as it does not apply to what is likely for anyone. In the river murders, you would not have been safe with your gun. This was my original point and still is. They were swimming and he had a scoped rifle. It does not matter how good one can shoot,even if we shoot better than every man on the face of the earth, we were going to die that day. I will not support the I am a crack shot and can defend myself argument. In many circumstances; no you won't. I respect and support your right to try to defend yourself and admire your shooting ability. Lets not lead others to believe that one's shooting ability changes this argument one iota. This is not about shooting ability, but rather how carrying a gun, combined with ones perceived shooting ability, can lead to a very false sense of security. One final point relating to the OP (about time for god's sake). If you are going into nature to enjoy it for what it is, why then should you put yourself in a position to destroy it. If you really care about nature shouldn't you take every means to preserve it? Food away from camp up in a tree, elevated sleeping, hard sided shelter, trip wire alarms, portable electric fence (see recent Sea Kayaker article), and finally, Bear Spray. We are intruding on their house, not the other way around. As for the F'd up humans, carry a gun and do unto others as they would have done unto you, but don't think for one minute that it is the "answer", or that your ability to shoot fundamentally changes that "answer". I hope we can paddle together someday, and I would be willing to pay to see shooting that good, off hand and iron sights, just like I would be willing to pay to see any good performance. Bill
is this a typical response from you?
Why have discussions if you stop talking to anyone who disagrees with you?
target practice is a different world
Moparharn is right when it comes to the general public that carries. Have you considered your accuracy in a panic situation?