Wow!
Can’t believe that nobody has mentioned building a SOF. I’ve got 13 days in mine and it’s now ready for painting and then caulk - 17.5"w by 17’2"l. I’m thinking it might be fairly fast.
http://good-times.webshots.com/album/563539039AzaHzg
Cheers,
~wetzool
Here is a guy local to you
http://www.blueheronkayaks.com/kayak/index.html
OK - - He’s still in state
I’ve seen seam separation
on glass and composite boats, and people have posted on it here many times. I’ve never seen it happen on an S&G boat. Doesn’t mean it can’t. But it suggests that maybe it is no more of an issue on an S&G boat than a composite or glass one.
$300-500?
You buy your supplies at Tiffany’s?
Skin on frame
Please accept my apologies, Wetzool. My not including SOF’s as an option was simply ignorance on my part. I need/desire to learn more about them, as they’ve been around a while, too.
From the looks of it, I’d agree with you, you likely have a fast boat. If that’s what you sought, appears you did well.
The OP
asked for advice. No need to make this personal.
If you think it’s only going to be the price of a basic kit plus $50 extra that’s not very realistic.
$300-500 extra for miscellaneous stuff seems reasonable to me.
Wooden boats may have been around for over a 100 years, but epoxy boats haven’t. How long has UV protected varnish been around? Five years? Epoxy? Ten fifteen years? Epoxy doesn’t like the sun. So, I was concerned about the durability of the epoxy wood boats.
Maybe they are very strong, but I couldn’t verify that and was concerned about it wearing though at the seems, etc.
I was going to build a stitch and glue, then realized I would have to put my head inside the hull to epoxy the inside seems. I haven’t built one but filling all the joints with tick epoxy looked like a PIA. So, I decided a cedar strip would be easier for me to build. I called around to buy the cedar strips and only one place had them for 80 cents a foot for the finished strips. $1800 for one kayak. So, I would have had to mill it myself, etc.
Otherwise, they appear to be good useful kayaks. I think I could have been very happy with one. They are beautiful. I also wanted to able to store one outside in a pinch, and I have grown up with fiberglass boats that are stored outside. Wood boats rot.
Please feel free to correct any misinformation. I don’t own one, but I wanted to give my take on it, as the OP asked for honest opinions.
I’m glad I bought a used composite from here at PN. But find the boat that’s right for you, and enjoy it!
got a buddy
– Last Updated: May-22-08 9:31 AM EST –
who has built 4 sea kayaks of the stitch and glue fiberglass covered variety---very fast and light boats---some have been CLC(chesapeake light craft) and some are Shearwater--he pays around 1000.00 for the kits and they are fairly complete--He doesn't have to buy a lot of extras to outfit it. It usually takes him a winter(in Maine around 5 months) to complete a boat--sometimes longer if he has other stuff to do.
If I had the apptitude I would try building one myself---for about a third of the money you can get a kayak that more than holds its own with 3000 dollar plus kevlar boats etc.
My .02
S & G’s are quick and easy to build. Maybe give one of the kit manufacturers like Pygmy a call and talk to them. They’re nice folks.
Wooden boats are much lighter (unless you’re heavy handed with the resin). My Pygmy Artic Tern 14 weighs several pounds less than my carbon/kevlar Impex Mystic 14’ and I have a 17’ Outer Island stripper that weighs a mere 37 lbs.
Extra supply costs are negligible.
I think you’d enjoy the building process as well as the result. And remember the sense of pride that you’ll have, too.
Guess the point I was trying to make…
is that in the end, considering and regardless of all the factors, it is very much a personal thing.
Weighed in mostly because there seemed to be an air of general bias against non-production boats, mostly from folks admitting they didn’t know all that much about them. Just hoped to balance that out a bit.
If your ambition for a striper comes back, know that milling your own strips is not so bad. Ripped, bead and coved enough strips for three 17’ boats in half-a-day, and I’m amateurish. No way I could have justified popping 80 cents/ft!
wooden kayak
I’ve built three wooden kayaks and am planning to build a fourth soon. The first one was a plywood/strip hybrid and the other two were strips. If you want to build one you should. Its a great experience and there’s nothing like paddling a kayak that you built. You also get to make it exactly like you want it. If you ever do have any problems, since you built it you can fix it.
Overall wooden kayaks are very strong providing that you use enough fiberglass. I have no problem walking back and forth on the deck. I weigh less than a lot of people but I also build by kayaks with less fiberglass than most people. As long as you’re careful with the amount of resin that you use a wooden kayak can weigh a lot less than a similarly sized composite kayak.
I ended up building my kayaks mainly because I like woodworking but also because I wanted something that fit me and I could never afford to buy even a used fberglass kayak. Depending on what tools you have already and what kinds of materials you use, you can easily build a kayak for under $1000. My first kayak cost about $750 and the next two each cost under $600. First I cut my own strips on a table saw. Also you don’t need to buy expensive epoxy. I use epoxy from US Composites which works great but is much cheaper than some other brands. Cedar can be expensive but a kayak does not need to be built out of cedar. You can make a kayak out of pine. Although I’ve used cedar, redwood, and mahogany, I also made a hull from less than $10 of construction grade spruce. You have to piece it together but it looks great.
I hav some pictures of the building process for my last kayak here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/42576359@N00/sets/72157601639188494/
Foam core?
First, I’ve never done this. But in the old days (well, 15-20 years ago?) many wind surf boards were built by fiberglass cloth and epoxy over a styrofoam core. No wood. These came out pretty decent and you could relatively easy make them any shape you want by carving the styrofoam piece to any shape before covering it with epoxy/cloth.
Is this being used for kayak building? There would be one extra step to remove the styrofoam out once done (or leave some of it for flotation if storage space is not needed), but other than that it seems very similar to applying cloth/epoxy over a wooden kayak…
Anyone know anything about this? I might be tempted to try it this summer and get a custom fit kayak that would accomodate my height and feet but not be a bath tub at the same time or cost me a fortune -
Epoxy/Glassing the seams
is a minor challenge, but from my perspective a fun one. If you aren’t into challenges and projects, then of course, building a boat is a bad idea. I will say that I think your perceptions (not based on experience) of both the difficulty and the cost are greatly exaggerated (based on my experience.) As for the seam issue, to the extent it is anything to worry about at all, it would be an issue in any glass or composite boat. I know exactly how good the seam bond is in the boat I built, because I did it myself. Buy one, and you are at the mercy of the unknown builder. Plus, in the unlikely event I did get seam separation in the boat I built, I would know exactly how to fix it.
Nothing Personal Intended…
– Last Updated: May-22-08 8:09 PM EST –
...just some opinions from my own building experience...
Re Fast orange - it's used for cleaning tools and gloves, not hands - wear long sleeved heavy duty kitchen gloves and be tidy in your work, and your hands stay clean.
Yep, wooden boats are susceptible to dry rot - but it sure helps if the wood is completely encapsulated in multiple coats of epoxy, which forms a tough protective barrier between wood and water. My first VK, built in 2001, shows no signs of deterioration other than cosmetic damage, a result of our rocky shores and the fact that we use the boats. Paint's quick, easy and cheap to maintain. In the event of major damage, there is absolutely nothing clear of fire that can't be fixed with ply, epoxy and glass tape. A couple of our VKs overwinter upside-down under the back deck - some shelter, but not totally out of the weather...
Re fumes - given good ventilation, and the fact that I only work with resin very occasionally, I don't find the fumes bothersome - but I do take an entirely different view of the sanding dust, especially when the stuff's semi-cured - that's really toxic. Do it outdoors, stand upwind, be properly dressed and use a good respirator.
Re head inside hull - yep, some designs do this, to avoid using shear clamps. The VK doesn't - the shear clamp gives you a solid 3/4" x 1" pine strip inside the upper edge of the topsides. The deck is simply mounted on that and the bulkheads with screws every few inches holding the two halves together while the epoxy goes off. Since there's no FG tape on the inside seam, there's no need to get your head in there...
Re seams wearing thru - it'd take a fair while, and gross neglect...the keel-line on the VK has, working from the inside-out, seven layers: sheet of 6 oz. glass cloth over entire cockpit floor; along on the keel-line, the following - strip of 6oz., 4" FG tape; thickened silica/epoxy fillet, approx 1" wide; 4 mm marine ply; strip of 4", 6 oz. FG tape; strip of 3", 6 oz. FG tape; generous coat of fairing compound. two coats marine enamel. And there's five coats of epoxy, two inside, three outside. I repair the odd centreline ding and bits of abrasion during the season with dabs of 5 minute epoxy, pending bi-annual paint jobs. No big deal - love working on boats as much as I do using them...
BTW - I have absolutely nothing against FG kayaks, especially the kevlar ones, or poly boats for that matter; there's a lot of good designs out there, and each material has it's advantages. If I hit the right deal on the right boat, I'd be glad to have one. We have a 16' kevlar canoe and our favourite canoe is a FG Oneida 18, and we like both just fine. If people don't enjoy building, they should by all means buy whatever they want and can afford, use it as often as possible, and enjoy it. It's not what you're in out there, but what you're at, that counts...
I’m pretty sure this has been done
by someone on this board a year or two ago. I recall seeing the posted pictures of the foam mold.
more likely
failure will occur adjacent to a seam where interior glassing consists only of tape and the stress is dumped right at the edge of the tape away from the seam, just like what happened on my Mariner Experss during a rescue in rough water. On that boat a loud crack came from the aft deck during a paddle float rescue and a 18" crack in the gel coat opened up on one side. I looked inside and found the 3" seam tape on that side was aligned along the center of the bend in the deck whereas the other side the tape extended beyond the bend. When I climbed on top the deck flexed and the gel coat cracked right where the tape ended and not on the other side where the tape reinforced the bend at the decks edge.
I’ve heard of someone getting a crack on the exterior chine but I’ve seen and heard a LOT more cracks and holes occuring in the open areas between chine and keel or deck where the underside is inadequately reinforced for the expected us.
On an eight paneled Coho I made with 4oz s-glass on the exterior and doubled layers on the center sections there were numerous impacts through years of rough use. On one ding that occured right on an angled seam joint where there was no fillet on the inside you could see whitened fibers on one side of the joint where there was one layer of glass on the top panel and no whitened fibers on the lower panel where there were two layers of glass.
Basically damage shows up where things are weakest and impact is most frequent. The keeline and chines are strong elements. It’s very rare to have damage manifest itself there.
epoxy/ply kayaks don’t rot
Unless you let them sit for years on end with standing water and the interior sealing coats were minimal. Depends on the thickness of the interior sealing coats. A lot of water and diesel tanks on boats are made from epoxied plywood.
I’ve built about 14 different s&g constructions and built the last ones to be stored outside with the same attitude as you have towards glass boats. That’s why I say they won’t weigh much different than a glass boat if built to maintain cosmetic finish. I’ve seen canoes/boats built with weathered okoume that was allowed to dry out before epoxing.
First off rot comes from trapped water intrusion. The epoxy seals the wood more thoroughly than paint or varnish. So a regular wood construction like a boat that is sealed with paint or varnish requires continual re-coating to maintain waterproofness. With 4mm ply or cedar strip covered on both sides with glass the sealing laminate is 100X more durable than a few hundredths of an inch of paint. But more importantly as a percentage of the entire boat/kayak the sealing laminate is a substantial part of the structure. It’s tough and thick when there’s glass cloth on the wood. Paint and varnish can be tough, but not that tough. Paint and varnish do not bond into the wood like epoxy. Often times you can peal paint or varnish off, you cannot peal epoxy off. It becomes a part of the wood.
Rot occurs with boats left in standing water and the water comes in from below or the boat is left to collect standing water. Neither happens with a kayak or canoe thats taken out of the water and stored upside down.
re. UV protection. That’s why I’ve gone to painting hulls for boats stored outside. The last couple fill coats are pigmented epoxy with paint on that. When the paint is scratched the pigment prevents UV damage from occuring into the glass laminate. Also the interior compartments are well sealed to reduce the opportunity for water vapor intrusion when the kayak is left in the sun and water is in the compartments.
ditto
I was willing to install bulkheads and hatches in my Mariner Express after building a couple of s&g kits. I installed a VCP hatch in the stern but didn’t make a flat surface for the rim and it leaked a bit. Made the front hatch totally custom with a hard cover and it was totally waterproof. The building experience gives you all you need to know to repair it.
new friends
I built a cedar stripper in my open carport last spring. It took about 3 months working at a casual pace. What I did not expect was how many people, either boat lovers or woodworkers or both, would stop to say hi and take a look and ask questions and offer to help. It did slow down the process, so if you are in a hurry or anitsocial build out of view of the road!
There is an intersting thread on the CLC
Forum - because I asked the exact same question over there this morning. Turns out that the ‘make-or-buy’ decision is based mostly on preference - there is probably not great economic advantage to building. But there is a great personal reward.
Interestingly, I’ve met many folks who’ve built their boats, and relatively few of them would label themselves as ‘Paddlers’ (with a capital ‘P’) - most do some paddling, but not that many are self-described expert paddlers. Nick Schade is an exception as are a few others.
My old BCU coach used to say ‘if you’re building, then you aren’t paddling’. So I guess it depends on how much time you have to give the project.
re. the answer
from the question you posed over there. If you already have all the tools and table it’ll cost another $200 to finish it. I’d be surprised if you could get all the tools and materials for a table for less than $200. Get your brushes by the box and gloves by the box.