I am new here but the question seemed pretty straight forward to me.
By way of intro, my name is Mick and I live in Queensland, Australia. I own a variety of bought fibre-glass and kevlar canoes and kayaks and have so far, built 8 Stitch and Glue Kayaks,Canoes and Pirogues.
Here, a very good fibreglass sea kayak will cost between 2K and 5K depending on brand etc. I love my bought boats but simply don’t paddle them much any more.
Here is why,
I can build an equivalent or better boat out of marine ply/epoxy resin for much less than 1K. it really is that simple.
Sure, there are other factors, like time spent during the build, but for me, this doesn’t count. I love building my own. The joy of watching YOUR boat taking shape as you build, really just has to be experienced to be adequately understood.
Then, there is the WOW factor. be prepared to answer a lot of questions every time you put in or take out. Or stop somewhere for fuel or even park the car. priceless.
Then there is the joy of paddling the boat that YOU built and put a little piece of yourself into during the process. The comment was made here somewhere that wooden boats have soul. i love that phrase. It fits perfectly.
A lot of negative comments were made here by people who, it seems, have never built their own. While they are entitled to their opinions, with respect, I really don’t think they are qualified to state them.
A few facts about a properly made marine ply epoxy canoe/kayak.
It will be stronger than either fibreglass or kevlar.
It will be lighter than either fibreglass or kevlar
properly treated with layers of graphite enriched epoxy below the waterline, It will also be more abrasion resistant.
It will be way prettier than any other store bought boat.
Performance is all about hull form and shape. Very little has to do with what the boat is made from
mate, I would encourage you to explore the build yourself possibilities. You won’t regret it. Most designers now have thir own build forums where help and advice is readily to hand.
is it appropriate to post links here?
Good luck on your build mate. Go on, Have a go. You know you want to.
the point I think they are all a great value, a stitch and glue, or brand new Kevlar. You don’t put gas in it. Heck, even if your stitch and glue last ten years, for a fifteen hundred, that’s not bad.
My issues with the stitch and glue were:
There is only one layer of fiberglass on the outside of the stitch and glue hull which is what holds the boat together. As opposed to a composite that has the main structural integrity on the inside, with a gel coat on the outside that is designed to wear down and be repaired before the structural component is damaged. So, if you ware down the outside fabric or skin of the stitch and glue it will have lost it’s integrity.
The epoxy is highly susceptible to UV rays from the sun.
Stitch and glue epoxy boats haven’t been around that long.
You need to varnish or paint every several years.
Some of these statements such as wooden boat being able to shape more easily is simply not true. Fiberglass is a liquid that is formed in a mold, while you can only bend wood so far.
Why should I trust some small workshop craft boat kit with my life? I’ll stick with an experienced manufacture.
I don’t think a stitch and glue would last me as long as a composite for the kayaking I do. I go out at least twice a week in the hot sun, salt water. The sand of the beach will eat though a hull faster than a belt sander.
Also, I have worked with a lot of epoxy, so that is something to consider. I have a respirator and wear latex gloves, but it’s still toxic.
But, yep, like I said, a stitch and glue is a good light kayak with some limitations. Don’t run it up on the beach or keep it outside or in the sun. In five or ten years of heavy use, i would be more concerned, but it would be good to go for many years, just not as long as a composite.
Hope this helped.
I’m warn out from kayaking all day!
Heck, there are all these big power boats out there, and I’m just happy to be out on the water.
I agree completely with Mick (hey Mick, how are ya mate?), just build it. I’ve built 3 stitch and glue boats and my 14 year old daughter is currently building her first one. We’ve built our boats from kits (2 Pygmies and 2 Bear Mountains) and as Mick says, the time spent building doesn’t count (financially) – and it’s a lot more enjoyable than you might think.
There are lots of benefits to building your own kayak – it’s cheaper than an equivalent fiberglass or kevlar boat, and lighter, and stronger, more fun to paddle, and it’s just way, way more cool.
It’s also nice that you can build the boat the way that YOU think it should be (wait until you see what my daughter has in store for her boat).
Islander has touched (very briefly) on some of the percieved limitations of a Stitch and Glue kayak.
One is the susceptability to damage by UV radiation. This is certainly true - but no more so in the Poly fibreglass boats. That is why they are covered in Gel Coat.
Another is the percieved weakness of a fibreglass and epoxy sheathing system over the core of marine grade ply-wood. This is another myth. The fact is that a properly built S&G boat is way stronger than mere polyester fibreglass.
Reference was made to hard wear and tear on the bottom of these boats. My argument is that such a S&G boat with sacrificial layers of graphite enriched epoxy on the bottom will out last even the plastic boats over time. It takes about 10 minutes to re apply another coat of this stuff when it starts to wear thin.
Allmost snide comments were made about some small shop cutting the kits and risking your life in such a boat. Again, with respect, this is utter B.S. I trust my life in my wooden boats and more importantly the lives of my loved ones.
The fact is that do you know who is building your factory job. Is it a craftsman who really cares about what he/she is doing? Or is it some kid employed on some sort of subsidised training programm that the employer can get cheap? You will never know the answer to this.
I also use my boats hard. I have paddled grade 2 rapids, bounced off rocks sustaining miner damge that would have and did destroy an all fibreglass boat. Regularly launch through surf and fish rock and submerged log ridden skinny waters in them. They get as much abuse as any boat I have seen used. and have stood up magnificently to the worst I could dish out.
Mate if you want a fine boat that will do what you want it to, buy one. If, however you want something very special - build your own. You will never regret it. Most of the boat designers have their own dedicated forums with a wealth of knowledge, experience and practical tip to help out as you go.
There are other forums Like West Coast Paddler with the same expertise. We all want to see you have a go at this. Not from any particular vested interest but because we have done it and know that it is a beautiful thing.
Fiberglass is a liquid? And do you really know how long stitch and glue boats have been around, or are you just counting the number of years you’ve been aware they exist?
just out of curiosity are your opinions about durability based on experience with epoxy constructions?
there are as many layers of glass (e or s), epoxy, resin and types of fill coats as you want. You’re half right/half wrong. The outer skin is integral to hull strength but it doesn’t hold it together. The plywood and joints are already together. It provides surface hardness and panel strength. 4mm okoume by itself is pretty tough but certainly not as tough as 24oz roving in a matrix of resin. Abrading scrapes that will go through the gel coat in your glass boat will go through about 1/3 a similar depth in epoxy fill coats as gel coat is much softer. I’ve slid across rocks in a glass boat and a s&g kayak. A glass boat requires BOTH glass and resin matrix. A s&g has a range of resin and glass options,it’s not as binary as you present it given the OPTION of builder choice. Your glass boat will wear through 3/16" of gel coat and glass in the stern. I can apply a harder material that will wear 1/2 as much. Choices.
" So, if you ware down the outside fabric or skin of the stitch and glue it will have lost it’s integrity.",
actually no. You will have lost cosmetic integrity as the resulting waterstaining will be permanent but hull integrity has many more layers to go. Look at glass boats where seat bottoms or heels wear 1/2 way through the hull from the inside. Wear happens no matter the material. I could make a 55lb s&g tank that would be as durable as your glass tank. For very heavy people I think you could make a more durable kayak than is available in production. I made a Chesapeake 18 that was more durable than a friends glass Necky Pinta. The aft deck on the Pinta would buckle with his 325lbs and getting in the kayak on land would introduce all kinds of gel coat cracking. Not so with the boat I made that weighed a few pounds less.
Conceptually I’m in agreement with you that the core of a glass boat probably has a higher impact durability than a plywood boat glassed on both sides with 6oz e-glass. But the damage to a conventional s&g boat requiring repair would probably require repair in the glass boat. I’ve seen 10yr old tandem glass boats with leaky sponge like hulls as the resin matrix was fractured from repeated impacts or flexing from being sat in on ashphalt surfaces.
UV susceptibility, yes indeed. That’s why I go for opaque fill coats and paint on the hull or 3/4"-3" strip of graphite down the keeline.
s&g is good enough for $500,000 yachts, it’s been around long enough.
true. I’ve replaced skirts as often.
Four panel hulls have limitations but anyone who’s paddled a Caribou can attest it can make a well performing hull. The number of goofy production hulls is a testimony to the fact that good design for the water isn’t the highest priority for marketing production designs.
You should be a smart consumer, production or s&g,given the possibility of becoming sensitized to epoxy it’s worth getting a TESTED design as it’s not unlikely that the second or tenth construction will be your LAST one. For that reason I’ll steer people away from out and out BAD designs. CLCs Northbay and Northbay XL are BAD designs for the intended user(paddler), the Paxs and WR18 are learning experiences for the biz as were the Cape Charles, Patuxents and Chesapeakes. But Necky and Wilderness Systems have sent out some goofy stuff.
Nearly every manufacturer I’ve seen has sent out bonehead QC or design shortcomings. Coamings that came right off, leaky skeg boxes, leaky hatches, thin flexy hulls, crappy gel coat.
One can build a s&g for surf and dragging on the sand. Unlike a production boat where you DISCOVER it’s shortcomings ones own construction will be a known quantity with less of a sense of betrayal when a problem appears “for $3000 it shouldn’t leak”,etc
" Don’t run it up on the beach or keep it outside or in the sun. "…
Like I said,build it for the intended use. If you drag any boat over rocks,you will wear the tail off unless the tail is designed for that use. Whether it’s plastic, glass/resin or glass/epoxy/wood composite.
Build a light glass boat,and it’ll require repairs more often, build a light s&g boat and it’ll require repairs more often. Use any boat a lot,and you’ll get good at paddling!
to buy or not to buy Hey guys another newcomer. Been browsing this site for a while and enjoy it, lotsa good stuff. Anyway this topic made me get my assets into gear and sign up. firstly I agree…
Well agree with some of it. Have built my own kayak and own a bought one. I agree that a lot of owner/builder kayaks, or canoes can be expensive. But what is expensive? I’m a cheapskate, always have been. For some reason I feel compelled not to spend money where I don’t need to, So I built a CHEAP kayak. S&G using construction ply, three sheets for $76. Cheap epoxy and fibreglass $152. Still have coupla metres of cloth and a litre epoxy leftover for any repairs/modifications I’m ever likely to need to do. Neighbour donated some outdoor varnish and I spent $25 on paint of which I used half. Would have to have spent $10 on s/s screws for footbraces, and a turnbuckle (This was cut in half and one eye embedded at the bow one at the stern). A store bought fishing rod holder cost me $30!!! which is about 10% of the total $300. Ok obviously I spent money on gloves sandpaper masking tape brushes and sponges etc. But definitley no more than $40. Would love to know where some of you guys shop. I’d love you as customers. Already had a very good respirator and basic tools.
So, what did I get for $300? Well, an extremely efficient, good tracking, non-weathercocking little boat. It felt a little bit skittish at first but secondary stability is very good I’m not that experienced but now feel comfortable leaning it over till the coaming is at waterlevel. I’d best explain “little”. It’s big enough to take me, fishing and camping gear, food and water for four day trips. It certainly doesn’t look as pretty as some of them furniture quality ownerbuilder boats, or some of the very expensive bought ones. Yet it still manages to attract positive comments from most people that see it. Anyone that has tried it has been impressed, including a few serious paddler folk that have had a go in it.
Easy and light enough for skinny old me to chuck on top of my car. Mostly use it on sandy put in’s. Running this thing up on sand is NOT gonna hurt it. At the same time I wouldn’t drag it over concrete, or any other boat for that matter.
Yep, in a few years it will need recoating refurbishing or whatever. I think all boats deserve that though.
I reckon anyone that’s curious enough to want to build a boat should have a go at it. Worse thing that can happen is it might end up being scrapped. You don’t have to be good with your hands its not rocket surgery. Hell I did it. I reckon I’ll be selling or giving away to family my bought boat. Its just a boat. My new one is MY boat.
zactly I remember paddling out past some oyster farms in a protected inlet in my $3000 glass boat and there was a guy in a very rough looking kayak made out of door skins doing the same thing. We were in the same water doing the same thing.
Typically used for making indoor doors. Door skins are usually a little bit thinner (3mm) than standard okoume marine plywood (4mm). It’s not rated for boat building as there can be voids (air pockets) in the laminations but because typical boat building methods completely seal the plywood, it generally can work with good results.
good points But all of the issues I addressed were valid, not BS.
You would need to address these issues which is not part of a basic kit.
You have to add in the extra cost of high grade paint or varnish. Also add in the cost of painting or varnishing every several years.
Working with epoxy for over 100 hours is something you have to decide for yourself. Is your work room detached from the rest of the house etc? Maybe you don’t mind that smell in your house for a few months, maybe you do.
You will also wind up with a hard chinned boat. If that is what you want, but it’s your only choice because you can’t bend plywood.
There are other advantages to fiberglass that are usually included and you would have to add in with a stitch and glue, such as a retractable skeg, a good seat, knee braces, adjustable foot braces. So if you add up the total cost it may be more expensive to build a hard chinned stitch and glue, than buying a new or used composite.
Most stitch and glues are harder to roll and are not as maneuverable and easy to edge. Thus I like my P&H Kevlar used Capella for the ocean, and think it is much more seaworthy than a stitch and glue. I bought mine for $1500 and about $300 in minor repairs. To me that beats the heck out of a $1,400 stitch and glue that would take 100 hours to build. Instead I remodeled a bathroom in 60 hours and used the remaining 40 hours landscaping my yard.
Anyway, if I don’t respond again doesn’t mean I agree with you.
Not sure where you’re getting your information but it seems rather apparent that you’ve never built a kayak yourself.
100 hours of working with epoxy? I don’t think so. Time spent working with raw epoxy to complete a boat is not anywhere near that – and working carefully with proper safety equipment will minimize that time and exposure. Working clean also minimizes exposure.
Hard chines only? Have you not heard of multichine hulls? Definitely they are not hard chine. And yes, you can bend plywood – perhaps not around a complex curve but you can definitely bend plywood.
Your claim that you can’t have a retractable skeg, a good seat, knee braces, adjustable foot braces is absolutely crap. A thrifty and resourceful builder can have all those things WITHOUT a lot of additional cost. Most home builders are quite capable of manufacturing these items – and some kits actually come with some of these components.
Most stitch and glue boats are harder to roll, not as maneuverable, and harder to edge?!? Where the heck does that come from? Again, this is absolute crap! I can roll, maneuver, and edge my home built boats as well as any manufactured boat.
You also wrongly assume that any stitch and glue kayak is going to cost $1,400 to build – again crap. It is possible to build a non-kit stitch and glue kayak for well under that amount.
You need to get your facts straight (regardless of whether or not you respond to this message). Perhaps you should build a kayak of your own before telling people what is obviously uninformed rhetoric.
Islanders, forgive me… …I really don’t mean to be mean-spirited about this, but it is apparent it would do you well to study up a bit on the aspects of construction and the inherent qualities of a wooden kayak. Or at least preface your statements with by stating qualifications and experience on the matter, as most others have.
Next time you hit a lumberyard just try to find a piece of plywood (any grade, species or thickness) that isn’t bent.
capella is a good boat and well made. 150hrs is a reasonable total time for a s&g construction.
Your statements about handling issues being a consequence of structural material is an obvious error, do you really mean that? That’s like saying all fiberglass kayaks have similar handling characteristics.
Although most s&g designs are four panel there are some kayaks with more panels providing a more rounded handling envelope, that said I think the potential for 8panel designs is still untapped. I haven’t paddled Jemcraft boats but they have lot of 8+paneled boats.
I wasn’t - - Local resources are good Being that there are few resources for such endeavors unlike the north east coast, I wanted to inform a person about what a person in the Lake Erie area does.
A suggestion No one has mentioned Tom Yost designs yet, so I will. They are free designs for skin on frame kayaks - construction cost is generally low, maybe $300 (a friend just made a tandem baidarka in similar style for $250). Yost’s designs are simpler to make than traditional SOF because he uses plywood bulkheads rather than steam-bent ribs. The skin can be any of a number of materials, from cheap to expensive, ditto for the finish.
There are fairly complete instructions on the site. Construction time should be quick - I built a traditional SOF last summer in a one-week class. On your own, a Yost shouldn’t take more than a few weeks max. I’m planning to make a Sea-Bee someday soon - for your uses you should be able to find a design that would work well.
Oh, and a SOF will be lighter than anything else, except maybe carbon fiber, plus it will be much quieter on the water so you can sneak up on wildlife.
Islander, You really need to have some idea of what you are talking about. It is clear to me that you have no clue. Your assuptions and some of your statements are absurd - to say the least.
Keep paddling your Capella mate. Until you actually build your own boat, you can have no idea.
Dan has stated my thoughts very well, probably better and more tactfully than I ever could.
The most expensive of my boats cost me about AUD $750.00 that was including an Apex 1 seat, 7 rod holders, two deck plates, and rudder assembly & foot pedals & carry handles. Where you get your figures from is a mystery to me.
I just completed a multi panel expedition canoe, 16.5 feet long X 33" wide, using premium marine ply (Lloyds Rated) and West Systems premium epoxy. I spared no expense on this build and used the very best available material throughout
construction. Total Cost - less than AUD $550.00.
I would defy anyone to prodce a store bought, better paddling canoe of similar dimensions or one that is that is lighter, stronger or faster or more manouverable - or prettier for that matter.
If I could post pictures here, I would. Let me assure you that I have a shed full of very good kayaks and canoes, both factory made and ones I built myself. My superb factory boats get very little use nowadays and each and every one of them is for sale. The reason for this is very simple. my stitch and glue boats are better.
You seem determined to assert your authority in an area you know nothing about. The epoxy that came with my Pygmy has almost no odor at all. Once again, exaggerating the hours to build and the costs incurred, while admitting you’ve never actually built one. Amazing.
Hey I didn’t say it was THAT rough lmao.