I have a tubular type radar detector, the top of which is hanging from a 6 foot fiberglass pole.
Has anyone tried this configuration and have any results? I have read the U Maine paper and it does not really give much information for this kind of reflector.
I hear mariners on VHF asking for radio checks all the time So when I go up to Maine I think I may deploy it, and ask nicely over VHF if they can see me on their radar. What would be the proper protocol for calling an vessel with an unknown name if you only know its approximate location?
I went to the trouble and expense of buying and rigging it because I had a close call with a “self-driving” lobster boat as fog was rolling in. Here is my story:
I was crossing a channel (the ‘Eastern Way’ off of Mount Desert Island) with haste because fog was coming. I heard the drone of engine just while I was 1/2 way across the channel. I paddled like hell to get to get to the Seal Harbor bell buoy at the other edge of the channel, finally getting satisfaction that I was to his starboard. Then the boat turned right to me. So I paddled even harder. As soon as I was sure I was way to his starboard, the boat turned right to me, again on a collision course.
As it got closer, I saw there was no one in the wheel house. The radar was spinning. At about 150-200 yards someone jumps outs from below deck, gets to the wheel, and cuts the engine. He changed course, giving me wide berth, and waved in friendly way as he went by.
In retrospect, I guess that we were both headed to the exact same spot on the ocean…the red bell buoy outside the harbor. I asked some questions on shore and did some reading. I learned that many lobster boats have a GPS autopilot to drive the boat along a route. Due to the economics of lobstering, some fishermen cant stay at the helm–they rig and bait the traps as the boat follows its course. In lieu of keeping watch, they turn on radar. The radar gives an audible alarm if it detects something in proximity to the boat. So I will speculate that I finally was detected by the radar at 200 yards…I’d rather have more margin.
Refer to the link below for a description of how a lobsterman had to leave the wheel to do some work while the boat was on autopilot and his partner was asleep. He fell overboard. So no one was on watch, and it is not even clear that the radar was set to alarm.on proximity to something.
I have been all around MDI many times, and plenty of lobster boats. Except for this one they were all working, or entering/exiting a harbor.
Yes, this happens. Mostly an issue at the end of the day when they are coming back into harbor. It is rarer in Muscongus Bay because altogether less crowded, but there was one coming in to Friendship from Black a couple of days ago that l am pretty sure only slowed down because a smaller boat in front of him was about to get mowed down and squacked. The three of us in kayaks were backing our asses off but this one was being as unresponsive as l have seen in a long time. Bright orange boats and waving a paddle with reflectors and getting out of the channel, reasonable visibility was fine. Likely we were clear of getting nailed but closer than l usually see in this area. One thing to note, the west side of Black is an area where the definition of the channel at a higher tide state is pretty vague, it tightens up after the boats get beside Friendship Long Island. Thing is, a lot of these guys also have lousy hearing from years of diesel engines. Radio definitely a good idea, but in busier areas it might be the best idea to just not be there when they are likely to be ending their day.
Are you sure you aren’t in the US Navy? Seems like we have destroyers who have the same problem.
All kidding aside, it will be difficult to increase the size of your radar profile without a larger structure to rebound the signal. Mylar gives off a modest radar rebound, so you could add some to the top of your “mast” or whatever you call that fiberglass pole. Not sure if strips or a solid piece might help.
"During the spring of 2003, two rounds of preliminary visibility tests were conducted with the Maine Association of Sea Kayak Guides and Instructors (MASKGI): one with the U.S. Coast Guard, the other with a lobsterman. Two conflicting sets of results emerged. Using a range of radar settings, the Coast Guard radar was consistently able to detect sea kayaks at various levels of intensity, depending on the model of radar reflector. The lobsterman’s radar, similar in caliber to the Coast Guard’s, was NOT able to “see” any of the paddlers, despite use of the same radar reflectors and similar sea conditions.
Perhaps invest in a chaff deploying system (kidding again)."
FYI you can get a tubular radar reflector from Amazon for about 25 bucks. A fiberglass marker pole is 2 bucks at Home Depot. Risk mitigation for less than a pair of a good gloves…
The paper in question did not test a commercial grade reflector 6 feet above the water.
As an aside, our destroyers are shadowing something running under the tankers so that it hides it’s acoustic signature. Either the rudder control systems has a problem with wakes, or the commander isnt taking aggressive evasive manoeuvres that might give away the ships presence and having bad luck.
The test probably tested what has been observed being used by kayaks. It is, thus, a safe assumption that the efficacy of what is being sold is not going to provide a lot of advance warning to a radar system.
As to the other, are you suggesting that the chinese subs may be hiding under the ships? I’m shocked! Shocked to find gambling in this establishment.
That said, the course of at least one of the cargo ships was…rather dubious. Most ships are completely automated and the captain would have had to override the computer for that to happen.
Seriously all, someone did a study of radar reflectors for kayaks, about a decade or so ago I think, to sort out which system worked the best. Most were on the tall side but not obtrusive to paddling. I think it got reported in Sea Kayaker magazine. I don’t have time to dig around for it but it might be worth someone’s time to search…
Seems to me a sail made from Mylar would probably do the trick. Maybe a kite? But what do I know? Most of the idiots with motors where I paddle don’t even have radios, let alone radar.
Plus when you’re under sail, you have more right of way… but tell that to the massive ship bearing down on you.
I have gone under the impression that there was no effective way to make us seen on radar, so should take appropriate cautions. We had people from Coast Guard’s vessel traffic service for SF come to a club meeting once, and radar visibility came up. They said that standard radar wouldn’t pick up a kayaker. On military ships, the weapons targeting radar could, but you don’t want that.
In the case of the lobster boat, you could have gotten out your whistle and blown 5 blasts as load as you could to try to make sure they were aware of your presence. Or get an air horn.
@Peter-CA Lobster boat coming into port, on auto pilot and any crew on back deck cleaning out the traps or otherwise shutting things down for the day… and most of them are somewhat deaf from the sound of the engines… no way they would ever hear a whistle. Maybe an air horn just a few seconds before they ran over you.
When it comes to these working boats - ground fishing as well - you just have to be ready to get out of their way at times. Or avoid certain passages at the end of the day where this is more common.
Here is the link to the manufacturer. Its small, can be carried inside the kayak, and can be clipped on a fiberglass pole like a lantern. Of course the pole needs a bracket. Not too expensive, as previously noted.
@rjd9999 said:
The test probably tested what has been observed being used by kayaks. It is, thus, a safe assumption that the efficacy of what is being sold is not going to provide a lot of advance warning to a radar system.
As to the other, are you suggesting that the chinese subs may be hiding under the ships? I’m shocked! Shocked to find gambling in this establishment.
That said, the course of at least one of the cargo ships was…rather dubious. Most ships are completely automated and the captain would have had to override the computer for that to happen.
Rick
Well, we are going way off top but I will add
-The destroyer cannot react quickly to the actions of the tanker if it is running very close to the tanker
-I didn’t say anything about Chinese subs.
-Does North Korea have subs? Are they noisy? Any reason to watch them these days?
-Can you think of any explanation of why the tankers did not see the destroyers on THEIR radar and call out any warnings? (leaving the Philadelphia experiment out];
A decade or so ago, my local club did a test of various radar reflection strategies (including one commercial reflector on the market at the time) with the local Coast Guard. The other makeshift things we tried were wrapping a paddler in a Mylar blanket, covering a helmet with aluminum foil and one guy actually wore a steel colander on his head. It was on a windy, rough day and the bottom line is that even though they could see us visually, nothing made us visible to radar. According to the radar operator, we never looked any bigger than a sea gull on the water and couldn’t be readily distinguished from the surface noise. If he hadn’t known where we were, he never would have given what he saw a second thought. This was at close range, so at a distance our visibility would have been even worse.
Perhaps if you got a large enough reflector high enough on smooth water, they might be able to see you, but it’s questionable. Additionally, putting anything on a 6’ pole attached to a kayak is a recipe for being capsized by the wind. It’s really a dumb idea and anyone who markets a product like that obviously has no idea what they’re doing, and shouldn’t be trusted.
Subs hiding under surface ships is a common practice. They can run at higher speeds, their engine noise effecively hidden in the noise interference created by the large marine diesels. It is prossible that the destroyer was tracking, or trying to track, a sub (of either Chinese or Russian signature - though most of china’s sub fleet consists of old russian boats - November class, mostly, IIRC). In this region, only the Chinese subs are of major concern to the US Navy (though tracking all subs is a routine practice, especially for destroyer and submarine crews).
Discipline on container ships may be lax to the point of negligance (it has been in the past and that probably hasn’t changed). Generally, the computer systems use radar and respond to contacts quite effectively. Collisions are rare, and seem to happen only when (usually for dubious reasons) someone overrides the computer system and takes the ship where it has no (legal) business. The computer systems are quite reliable and plot a course that should be maximally efficient. The deck hands are involved with loading and unloading and have little to do while out at sea except to respond to emergencies (fire, someone overboard, etc.). Captains are overly reliant upon the automated systems and, despite their knowledge and skills, spend less and less time on the daily management of the ship and more on crew management. Specialists in radar and ship navigation systems are expensive and are considered redundant to the automated systems. They, generally, are not part of the crew.
The course of the container ship in the first incident was under control of such as system (according to http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-06-23/container-ship-was-autopilot-when-it-struck-uss-fitzergerald?page=3). The ship did not report any mechanical problems and did not report the collision until an hour after leaving the point of the accident. In at least one prior incident (APL ship vs. a lowly junk, the APL ship nav system could not be overridden by the captain and crew and APL had to pay massively when the ship left the scene of the incident). in this case, the Nav system seems to have tried to power through the destroyer, backed off, made a course adjustment only to resume it’s normal course after a 15 minute diversion. What the captain and crew were doing, I have no idea. The ship did return (almost) to the point of the collision, but never attempted to render aid and it is probably that it simply was trying to maintain its schedule.
Thus, the fault seems to be on the destroyer crew and since the navy will not report on it’s activites, we can only assume what may have happened. There is a good chance that the ship was carrying on some type of activity where they felt a need to approach the container ship.
Sadly, I don’t think anyone took pictures that day. The weather was pretty miserable and most people other than the kayakers were either inside the station or inside the CG vessel.
@bnystrom said:
A decade or so ago, my local club did a test of various radar reflection strategies (including one commercial reflector on the market at the time) with the local Coast Guard. The other makeshift things we tried were wrapping a paddler in a Mylar blanket, covering a helmet with aluminum foil and one guy actually wore a steel colander on his head. It was on a windy, rough day and the bottom line is that even though they could see us visually, nothing made us visible to radar. According to the radar operator, we never looked any bigger than a sea gull on the water and couldn’t be readily distinguished from the surface noise. If he hadn’t known where we were, he never would have given what he saw a second thought. This was at close range, so at a distance our visibility would have been even worse.
Perhaps if you got a large enough reflector high enough on smooth water, they might be able to see you, but it’s questionable. Additionally, putting anything on a 6’ pole attached to a kayak is a recipe for being capsized by the wind. It’s really a dumb idea and anyone who markets a product like that obviously has no idea what they’re doing, and shouldn’t be trusted.
I think your conclusion is not based on data. The reflector in question weighs much less than a pound, is about 14 inches high, has a round diameter of 2 inches, is meant to be used in foggy conditions when the seas are generally calm (no wind), is hung from thin flexible lightweight driveway marker fiberglass rod and is optimized to reflect x and s band marine radar…about 9 square feet of metal higher above the water than a nonreflective plastic sheet.
However, as soon as I get a chance I will ask for and share results from a recreational craft or government boat.