Rebel TOC and Jara impressions

Paddlers' Place
#1

Initial impressions of the Rebel TOC Kayak;

I took out the TOC kayak for the 1st time. Very different from most of the 3 Dz kayaks I have tried in the past, except for 2 of them One was an old P&H fiber glass that was very narrow and over 18 feet long, and the other was a Skin -on- frame kayak owned by a friend of my Sister. The TOC does remind me of both of those 2 to some degree.

But in short, the TOC is easy to use and edge turns well, is quick to accelerate and pretty confining to sit in. It’s quite narrow so it may not be the best kayak for some but my wife bought an Illaga which is the same length and narrower and she did wonderfully well in it. So it depends on many factors which as the “best” choices for various people.
I fill up the TOC completely but not to the point of getting squeezed. I am 5’ 6" tall (well…short) and I weight 185 lbs. I am more muscular than fat and my legs are quite thick. I have size 9 feet. I fill the seat completely the the part of the seat that it hangs from the combing is possibly the only place that may give me a problem. Time will tell. I FILL the seat and there is a light but noticeable pressure on the sides of my thighs at the “hangers” of the seat pan at the center point between my hips and my knees. . I wish that were made a bit different. But to be 100% fair to Rebel, I must admit that my thighs are 24-25 inches in circumference at that point. So someone with slimmer thighs, even 1-2 inches ,would probably not feel that pressure point.

The water was quite cold (still a bit of snow around the banks) and the wind was very stiff with no calm water to get on, so for the 1st trip it may have been a bit more complex then many other paddlers would choose to deal with, but the lady I got it from (Jacqueline, the owner if Vitamin Sea Paddle Shop) was only going to be with myself and my wife that 1 day, so we went in spite of those winds. It was out only day we could all go together. Sustained winds of 25-30 and 3 times the winds got much faster. In fact, before I got on the water, about 1.5 miles from my lunch point I was hit by a gust of cross wind that shifted the rack and 2 kayaks over in my pick-up bed about 2" despite the fact they were tied down with 8 ropes. It caused my little Toyota truck to move over about 6 feet sideways on the highway. So this was a windy day for sure.

I did capsize it 1 time after about 90 minutes on the water and by then my hands were so cold I lost the grip on the paddle and also found the wet-exit from the “Ocean Cockpit” needs a very different set of body movements, so it was uncoordinated. I roll just “ok” failing many times, and can’t roll without a paddle so I had to exit.
You HAVE TO get the spray skirt off the WHOLE combing, including that part behind you or it pulls you back, and you HAVE TO slip straight up from the seat pan a small amount (maybe 6") and then BACK about 18 inches to get your legs out. But I got out. It took me about 10 seconds I guess. I was so cold I just asked Anna to tow me to shore and then got warmed up some. It was only about 75 yards from shore so that was the quickest way out of the water with such limited dexterity in my hands .

The wind was stiff all day and at one point to stopped all 4 of us from going forward 100%. We were paddling at full speed and power for 2 minutes about 100 yards out from an island and could see the top of the island against the background of tall mountains and we were dead in the water. It was like our kayaks were tied to cement pillars. My best guess is that series of gusts were topping 40-45 MPH and may have been more. Jacqueline is very much an expert paddler and coach, and it stopped her too, so at least I felt Anna and I were not just being wimps and were too weak. Jacqueline is NOT a weak paddler. In fact she’s a long way from it. But it didn’t matter. The winds said “stop” and we did. In about 2 minutes it dropped to a point we could continue. So for the first time out I got some deep and lasting impressions.

I did find the TOC does and excellent job at resisting weather cocking. I did use the skeg a little in going back to the launch point, with the wind at my 7:30-8:00 position, but only used it (or felt I should try it) for maybe 1000 yards. And to be completely honest I know I could have gone it with no skeg at all, but after going into that wind for 3 miles I was ready to make things a bit easier. Not needing to use any corrective strokes with the wind behind me made the skeg very welcome feature. I deployed it fully and found that was too much. The stern lee-cocked so I retracted it to the 1/2 way point and then the TOC tracked like a road car.

As of now, I would say this kayak IS going to have a learning curve for me. I believe it’s going to be the best kayak I own for rolling, and it has enough capacity in it’s compartments to pack for a few days out. It’s very good in strong wind and all the chop that comes with it.

And I’ll give a few thought later on the Illaga too. Anna seems to have swallowed the bait and got very interested in the GL style kayaks and bought an Illaga when Jacqueline got here. I’ll be posting some of her impressions soon (or get her to do it)

Anna had never sat in a GL kayak before yesterday and this was her 1st experience ever in training to roll. In 30 seconds (yes 30 seconds ) under Jacqueline’s tutoring she was doing a balance brace and recovering on the back deck and doing it in rough water.

I think she’s REALLY going to like this. She’s a total natural. I am so proud of her! :slight_smile:

So we now have 3 Rebel kayaks on the wall braces in my shed. I have only 6 hours of experience in the TOC as of this writing, and not even 1 minute yet in the Jara, so more impressions will come in the coming weeks and months about the TOC, the Illaga and the Jara.

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#2

I was hoping to go out with the TOC (or the Jara) again by now, but the water is still very cold and now it’s snowing again.
Maybe in a few more days I’ll have more details to post.

#3

I got to take the Rebel Jara out today for about 7 hours. Rebel Jara LV – Vitamin Sea Paddle Shop

Water is still cold, but it’s better then it was 2 weeks ago. Today it’s around 57F degrees. On the 12th it was 42F to 44F, depending on where it was measured.

The Jara is an excellent kayak. Hard chinned and 17 feet 4-1/2 inches long. It’s 20.5" across the beam. It’s easy to turn if edged aggressively. A slight edge helps but it will not turn with my Chatham17 until you get a very good edge. Once there however it does quite well. I am unsure it that’s because of the hard chines or the Swede form hull. Maybe both?

It is fast too. I was not able to get the bow to rise up with this kayak as I can with the Fathom and the Chatham, but It gets right along when I want to move it fast.

Cargo capacity is less then the Chatham or the fathom. It’s only 1/2" longer then the fathom, but it’s 9/10" narrower. It’s also about 17 pounds lighter. Overall I like this kayak very much.

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#4

How much does the Jara weight? What layup does it have?
Thanks

#5

I have the standard lay up with the Jara. Our TOC and Illaga have the HD lay ups.
The Jara is close to 49 pounds.
My wife’s Illaga with the HD lay up is at 40 pounds,
and the TOC with the HD lay up is 45 pounds

#6

Took the TOC out for 2 days. Camped out on the lake shore over night but loaded it for a 5 day trip to make it as heavy as I could by filling it with gear and food. I am well pleased with how well it handles. Edge turns are very easy in it, especially when I was packed with about an additional 75 pounds which sets it lower in the water.
Both days the winds were low, never more then about 12 mph.
Doing entries and exits in the ocean cockpit is still a bit of a learning curve for me. I never dumped it, but I felt awkward many times That will come with more use (I assume)
And the water today was 59 degrees so I also assume I’ll start roll-training with it soon. I might have today, but knowing the water will warm soon I decided to wait and not get chilled. So far I have not rolled this kayak.

#7

Took out the Jara for about 6 hours on Tuesday. The last time I must have found a “warm” spot because this time I put a thermometer in the water and it told me it was 49 degrees. So I didn’t try any rolls.
Wind was light at only about 10 MPH. I loaded for only a day trip. No problems with weather cocking, despite the fact I didn’t deploy the skeg at all.
I had the rudder along but kept it stowed in the rear compartment.

I cut the rudder retraction line and tied loops into it where the cut was made. I then placed a big fishing swivel on each loop. Then I made a small loop of 50 pound fishing line to re-connect it. By removing the 2 clevis’s and unsnapping 1 of the fishing snaps I can take the rudder off the kayak completely in about 1 minute.
The rudder is made by Kajak Sport in Finland and by turning it to 90 degrees is simply lifts off. Remove the 2 cables with the clevis’s and unsnap one fishing snap on the retraction line and the whole thing comes off very quick and easy.

The one thing I am no thrilled about is when it’s retracted it come up only about 160 degrees so it’s up in the air, and sticking back to the rear a bit too. In the way for placing the kayak in the rack in my shed, and just sticking up like a sore thumb. I’d have liked it better if it folded 270 degrees. But considering how easy it is to remove completely I am not all that displeased. I didn’t use it at all on Tuesday. I tried it out a while back and I must say it’s the easiest rudder I have ever used on any kayak, not just for control with the feet (toes) but also how easily it retracts and deploys.

The Jara is very easy to track in a line and edge turns well too, but you have to be a bit aggressive in it’s edging to get a tight turn from it. I assume that is because of the Swede form hull and hard chines.

I bought the LV variant not the HV so I am going to try a few different ways to load it for a long trip. But even the LV seems to hold enough gear and food for over a week of camping. I want to find a way that the trim is perfect or as close to perfect as I can get it. Because it does come with a skeg and a rudder, I am sure even when it’s out of trim it’s going to be easy to handle, but when trimmed correctly most kayaks just make paddling easier and with no need of a rudder. It also makes for higher speeds with the same amount of effort---- or the same speed with less effort.

I am going to take it to Montana in 3 weeks for a 10 day trip and at the end of that trip I’ll have a much better overview of pros and cons.

The TOC holds less gear so I will use it mostly for day trips and camp outs of 3 days or less. I could get more then 3 days of food and gear in the TOC, but because I own a Jara and a Chatham 17 and also an Eddyline Fathom, I see no reason to over-stuff the TOC. I have packed the TOC for 3 day trips now, and I find it’s somewhat sensitive to trim. More then any other kayak I own. But when loaded correctly it handles super well. It’s the least effected of all my kayaks by wind…IF the trim is perfect.

#8

I was out again yesterday in the TOC and I am really pleased at how well it resists weather cocking. All day I had winds from 15-20 MPH and for the most part didn’t even bother to put the skeg down. In one long leg of my journey the wind was at my 7:30 position and about 17 MPH and I deployed it about 1/4 of the way.
I LIKE this kayak.

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#9

I just returned form a week long trip in Montana on Ft Peck Reservoir. I took the Jara for this trip.
Would have stayed a ferw more days but my friend work out sooner then I did and had joint pains developing, so we can back early.

Pros about the kayak;
We got some stiff winds and fairly rough conditions a few times. Not threatening but enough to make it interesting… 17 to about 30 MPH. Waves have a very long wind fitch up there at times so I re-learned that a 20 MPH wind over 40 miles can produce larger waves then a 30 MPH wind does in 1 mile. But the Jara did very well. Easy to handles waves large enough to surrounds my waist as I had them break over my waist and around the skirt from both 45 degrees to the front or the back.

The Jara is a ruddered kayak and I set mine up with 2 loops made into the retraction line and inserted a short loop and 2 large fishing swivel snaps, so I can turn the rudder to 90 degrees and simply lift it off the kayak. I take the 2 shackles off the rudder and un-snap a swivel, and the whole thing comes off clean and is carried in the rear compartment. But 2 times I put it on to see what I thought of it in the winds. Can’t find much to complain about. The Jara comes with a Skeg. I much prefer the use of a skeg to a rudder in probably 19 times out of 20, and I love this kayak for the reason it’s super easy and fast to put the working rudder back on, but for the largest majority of times I will simply use the skeg.
It’s Swede formed so to get easy turning I have to place it on a pretty steep edge, but when there it turns well

Cons about the Jara;
It comes with Kajak Sport rudder and hatch covers. The forward compartment leaked water about 1" deep after breaking waves for 4 hours and the day hatch behind the cockpit did too. The rear compartment and the small convenance “day box” compartment in front of the cockpit were both bone dry. So I am unsure what to think about that. Other Rebel owners have said their compartments do not leak at all, but 2 of the 4 on my Jara do a little.

Overall I like the Jara very much. Originally I was going to take to TOC to Montana but find it doesn’t hold the amount of gear and food I needed to take, so I took the Jara instead. Not at all unhappy and the kayak was very comfortable for me even for 8 days and many hours on most of those days
Fort Peck 2 by Steve Zihn, on Flickr

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#10

An easy way to check your hatch rims is to take the covers off and slowly run water just outside of the rim. Give it a little time, and if it’s not sealed. you’ll see water start to trickle in somewhere. If the rims are sealed and not deformed in some way, and they and the covers are clean and free from dirt and sand when you put them on, it’s probably bulkhead leaks. That part is easy enough to check too. With your boat floating on the water and your hatch covers off, pour water into the cockpit. Look for water seeping through.
A lot of times you’ll see folks saying their hatches didn’t leak even after rolling. But paddling in waves that are ocassionally washing over the deck creates a much more extensive opportunity for water to seep in.
One of the things I tend to notice and enjoy about the type of paddling you’re describing is how easily a kayak rides along with waves - and also how easy is it to maintain good ground speed traveling against waves. For instance, this weekend I was paddling a Boreal Designs Fjord, a straight tracking 16 footer, and a somewhat rare version with a skeg instead of a rudder, but I wasn’t using it so that part really is irrelevant to me here. In any case, it has a really pleasant and sporty feel to it even as a straight tracking kayak, and I feel some added resistence like I typically feel in a 16’ sea kayak, so I don’t find it holds a lot of unusual efficiency paddling into waves and wind. It’s just kind of what I might expect. But when the waves get behind me, even small waves, I have come to know it as something extraordinary. It rides along with waves more easily than most, and I can’t think of a kayak that glides along with even small wind chop as easily as the Fjord. It really spoils me for then paddling something like my Romany Surf. While the Romany is also well-mannered from a directional control perspective in following waves, there are times when I’m working extra-hard and find it frustrating that it just won’t ride along with waves that I’m confident should be enough to carry me along. Sure, if they’re big and steep enough. But the Fjord will just easily glide along with ordinary, everyday type small waves that I wouldn’t consider rough water, and that is incredibly pleasing to experience, and makes downwind so much more fun.
It seems you’re appreciating that it’s fairly neutral in the wind - no excessive weathercocking. Have you managed to get it riding along with the waves in some of these windy travels? What is your experience there? I know many, maybe most kayakers would prefer that their kayak does not take off riding with waves. So for someone who experiences their kayak taking off with a wave as a loss of their preferred sense of control, they would probably describe the Fjord as unwieldy for the same reason I praise it. You have to gain confort and your mind has to make that jump to the realization that you get more movement for your effort focusing on directional control while surfing than you do with no directional control effort and just paddling along. All this to acknowledge that I have to be careful to separate an individual’s experience in a kayak from the capabilities and qualities of that kayak. So I’m just curious both what your kayak is doing and how you’re experiencing that in the wind and waves you’re describing.

#11

Yes I have checked for leeks in bulkheads many times by filling the cockpits of kayaks with water and seeing if any get through the bulkheads edges. The Jara I was paddling last week is brand new from the factory, so I’d be a bit miffed if it leaks. But you are correct in saying that leaks around hatch covers are worse when the kayak is not upside down. Few hatch covers seal perfectly tight. When sideways a leek is easier for water to get through because air can seep out the top as water seeps in the sides and bottom. The worst leeks I have dealt with are from trying to do balance bracing, when some of the hatch covers are under the surface, and the rest are above the surface.

I find that what slows me down most is the wind itself as it build to higher speeds. Some waves produced by a long wind fetch are not nearly as detrimental to speed as the wind blowing against my body. This kayak slips over waves very well.
Where I was on Ft Peck Lake, the wind fetch is very long if the wind comes from the west. So was getting over some pretty good size waves at times but the wind that produced them was not fierce. I made excellent time over distance. But at times if I am tiring to go directly into a wind of 35 MPH or more I just cant get anywhere. I have seen that a few times right here on the lake near my home. (Boysen Wyoming) At the north end is the Wind River Canyon and the dam plugs up the river at that point so the wind is concentrated in the canyon like an air nozzle, but the fetch is often only 1/3 to 3/4 of as mile long at the very north part of the lake. In those high winds the waves may only be 12"- 14" tall. But the wind is just so strong I can’t make headway if I need to go straight into it.
On Ft Peck Lake I was in a lot of 20- 26 inch waves but the wind was only 17-20 MPH. The waves were taller just because the wind up stream was acting on them from about 40 miles away, and all the way to my kayak, so the wind itself was not bad at all, but the ride was still a bit of a roller coaster.
When I was dealing with following waves I did find I like to deploy the skeg about 1/2 way down. I have only owned this kayak since April, and in beaming waves and in following waves the highest waves I have dealt with so far are about 2 feet or maybe just sightly more. On the last day on my Ft Peck trip I was in one place where the waves were so tall I could not see over them, but they were at my 10:00 to 10:30 position, so were not hard to deal with at all. Another day the waves were about 30" tall but I was going directly into them, so again it was not very challenging.

Weathercocking in the Jara seems minimal. It’s there, but not hard to deal with. The TOC is the best I have used so far, in it’s resistance to weathercocking. But it doesn’t hold enough cargo for me to take it on such a long trip.