Repair Advice for Stitch and Glue Kayak

@string said:
I have had wood, fg, carbon fiber, and plastic. The composite boats feel more lively in the water and are beautiful.
Now, all I paddle is plastic.

What were your impressions of them all? What led you back to plastic only?

The composite boats I have owned were highly rated , great boats. Unfortunately , my arthritic body didn’t love them.
My plastic boats are a WS Tarpon 160 and Pungo 140. Both have the WS Phase 3 seat, which I find very comfortable.
I also tend to ding and scratch boats ,which is just part of it. But, dinging and scratching expensive aquatic works of art really bothered me. Sounds silly, but that’s me.

Thanks String!

This is at my friend’s house and he has one of the few non rocky beaches here in Southern New England but at the end of the day the performance increase on a lighter Kayak is not that much compared to the never ending headaches and aggravations. Again if you have access to sandy beaches like my friend does then maybe it’s not a problem but Kayaking is about ease of getting in and out of the water as conveniently as possible with very low commitment and cost of entry. The “faster” and lighter materials might get you a marginal increase in performance which I did not feel was that much at the end of the day but for a logarithmic increase in hassles, aggravation and fragility. I am nearly 40 and still fit in my high school clothes and suit I got married in for health reasons but just like the bicycle world most of us could probably stand to lose the tiny weight difference the more expensive models give you in addition to much less durability.

There sure is something plasticky about my posts and heart with regards to Kayak and this craft is why! It was beautiful and gorgeous but as soon as I started to use it the scratches piled up so quickly that my desire ran completely dry when I found out about the long term maintenance needs. Had I known that I would have just stayed with plastic. When comparing the long term expenses, aggravations and maintnenace, especially when used on rocky beaches I came running a-screaming back to my plastic Kayaks which have only seen UV light and sea water as maintenance the last decade and a half I have enjoyed them.

Those that say wood, kevlar, epoxy, composite and all that jazz are stronger which translates into a better experience quoting all that tensile strength physics baloney are smoking something. Yes the impact resistance and rigidity are better but I have yet to see or even hear about a Ben Hur type Kayak battle where craft are flinging flaming projectiles and trying to punch holes in each others hulls at ramming speed. The truth is that any chain, team or system is only as strong as the weakest link and even a good layer of fiberglass or kevlar to coat it is nowhere near as abrasion or weather resistant as just plain old plastic. It adds complexity and will require constant maintenance, if you do it yourself it’s time consuming and potentially toxic, if you pay someone else to do it it’s abhorrently expensive. And as soon as you start to strengthen the hull like that, you’ve lost any weight advantage and now you have yourself one very expensive, fragile, high maintenance china doll. That is not what Kayaking is about, Kayaking is about getting in and out of the water anywhere you can or want and not sweating it. If I wanted to sweat it and turn a big fortune into a smaller one, that’s what boats are for!

I ended up giving my Kayak back to my buddy who built it. He was upset. As much as this Kayak cost and as beautiful as it was, that tells you everything as to why I was so happy to go back to plastic!


:smiley: :smiley:

I find it kind of a self-fulfilling outcome that my plastic 17 footer is so heavy that I have to drag it. My fiberglass 17 footer is light enough to carry for short distances with two hands and my wood 17 footer is light enough to pick up with one hand. Being able to carry the kayak can sure help minimize damage on rocky landings. I do still take the plastic kayak when I expect a rough landing. I’m a bit of an equipment junkie - that’s the only justification for the fleet of kayaks I have, plus I’m fortunate to have plenty of storage space.

@grayhawk said:

:smiley: :smiley:

I can do that with my Pungo as long as I don’t have to walk anywhere.

and 17 years ago I could carry one in each hand…

Somehow that pic made it into the pygmy catalog back then…

And back then I could pick up 50 lbs without thinking about it. Now I have to be careful with 20.

I’ve built a couple of Pygmys including a Coho. Worked on a couple of others. On all I employed a 2" tape keel strip.

It was mentioned that using fiberglass tape could net a poor result due to the selvaged edge standing proud and that the tape might not make the bends without puckering. The selvaged edge will stand proud but the tape will have no trouble laying flat on any of the hulls contours. Sanding the edge smooth is easy but the trick is to take it down with a scraper before it completely cures. If you don’t own one yet buy a quality cabinet scraper and keep it sharp. Don’t get one that is made of thick stock or made of stainless steel. Stainless is more difficult to sharpen and will almost certainly dull your file. A dull file hardens the edge of the scraper you are trying to sharpen. Vicious circle. You end up with a file that doesn’t cut and a scraper that is to hard to sharpen. No fancy shapes or holders, either Get a plain rectangular scraper that you can flex if you try hard enough.

Sand the blue paint down to epoxy wherever you need epoxy and tape to bond. Apply the tape and while the epoxy is still green scrape of the edge that is standing proud. If your scraper is sharp and the time is right it will come off slick as a whistle.
Green means that it isn’t totally cured but it is pretty hard. Don’t stress about it curing to much because you can still take that edge off with the scraper. It just doesn’t come off as quickly. Don’t hesitate to sharpen that scraper a few times. You aren’t in a hurry BUT you do want that scraper to be sharp.

Jon
https://3meterswell.blogspot.com

I remember setting my alarm for 3am to get up and trim hull to deck seam when it would be just right to cut.
Handiest tool to have is that cabinet scraper…

Thanks Jon. I was planning to add a full length keel strip, but also thinking I would first “patch” the worn areas of the keel using tape or a strip of cloth and then adding the keel strip over that . I’d end up with two layers of glass over the worn areas that way.

@Wolf said:
Thanks Jon. I was planning to add a full length keel strip, but also thinking I would first “patch” the worn areas of the keel using tape or a strip of cloth and then adding the keel strip over that . I’d end up with two layers of glass over the worn areas that way.

Belt and suspenders. I like it.

Jon
https://3meterswell.blogspot.com

Why are you using a steel scraper on fiberglass? Carbide scrapers aren’t expensive and they hold up to use on tough materials much better than steel. I’ve used one for several fiberglass repairs and other scraping tasks, and it’s still sharp. If you do need to touch up the edge, all it takes is a few strokes on a diamond hone. Give one a try; I think you’ll like it.

To CA139…
Your complaints about composite boat are WAY overblown, especially the nonsense about constantly having to repair them. Unless you’re trying to keep a boat looking like it did on the showroom floor, you’re just plain wrong (Note: you can’t do that with the plastic boats you prefer, no matter how hard you try). I’ve done a lot of paddling on the coasts of Maine, New Hampshire, Massachusetts and Rhode Island, including spending plenty of time in rock gardens and surf. I’ve launched and landed on all kinds of surfaces and I don’t “baby” my boats during the process. I paddle composite boats specifically because I can repair them if necessary. That allows me to use my boats as hard as I want to, without worrying about damaging them. When you wear a hole in most plastic boats, you’re basically screwed and any significant damage means tossing the boat and buying a new one. No thanks! Composite boats can be repaired almost indefinitely and will easily last for decades with only minor maintenance.

Sure, I’ve spent some time repairing damage I’ve inflicted and replacing worn off gelcoat, but the handful of hours per year that it takes is nothing worth griping about, because I had a lot of fun and adventure doing the damage in the first place. Most repairs can be accomplished in a few hours during times when I wouldn’t be paddling, so time off the water is minimal-to-nonexistent. I know that at any time, I can return the boat to it’s original performance level using inexpensive materials and a bit of elbow grease. You can’t do that with plastic boats and they don’t provide the same level of performance to begin with.

Every composite boat I’ve owned was purchased used, so they’re obviously a lot more durable than you claim. Most cost me little more than a plastic boat. They were all in fine shape and they still are. They will last me for as long as I care to keep them.

For the record, I have nothing against plastic boats. I started out with one and have paddled a few others that I liked. They also fill a price point that composite boats can’t approach, so people who can’t afford a composite boat or simply don’t want to spend the money on one can still get into the sport. That’s all good!

You’ve made it clear that you prefer plastic boats and that’s fine. What’s not fine is telling someone who’s looking for advice for repairing a nice - and readily repairable - boat that he should get rid of it and buy a plastic boat. That’s simply rude and disrespectful. If you don’t have an answer to his question, leave him alone, quit trying to hijack the thread, and let others who are willing to help him do so. With a few hours work with simple tools and materials, his boat will as good or better than new.

If anyone is interested, I’ve got some fiberglass and gelcoat repair instructions with photos on my website: www.briannystrom.com

@bnystrom said:
Why are you using a _steel _scraper on fiberglass? Carbide scrapers aren’t expensive and they hold up to use on tough materials much better than steel. I’ve used one for several fiberglass repairs and other scraping tasks, and it’s still sharp. If you do need to touch up the edge, all it takes is a few strokes on a diamond hone.

Brian,

Just my personal preference. I made my living with scrapers for about 15 years and used everything that I could get my hands on. I found that a steel scraper gave me the most options for the type of edge I could put on it, hence the degree of cutting VS scraping and the flexibility piece was key for me. It gave me much better control of the tool.

I found that I wasn’t using any of my fancy scrapers, including the one I had custom made by a guy who made surgical instruments for a living. It was a thing of beauty but in the end just wasn’t that versatile. Same for my carbide scrapers. I was never able to do much more than put a perfectly square edge on carbide or stainless but with steel I could easily put a razor sharp burr on the edge that would slice rather than scrape.

About a year ago I gave away all of my fancy scrapers and kept a handful that I actually used. Like I mentioned it is just a personal preference.

Jon
http://3meterswell.blogspot.com

bnystrom - I agree with your comments about maintaining composite boats. In my photo of the three hanging kayaks above, you can see all of the quick fixes in my old Necky Looksha IVs on the right. I fill in any significant gelcoat gouges with some epoxy putty and then sand somewhat smooth, leaving excess putty around the gouge rather than trying to fair it in completely smoothly. You can see many of those little fixes in the photo. These fixes aren’t elegant, but it takes about 10 minutes to do.

For a carbide scraper for fiberglass, are you talking about something like this? https://amazon.com/Red-Devil-3002-Carbide-Scraper/dp/B001SBNGDS. I can get one of those for $9.99 at a local home imrpovement store. —Thanks

@Wolf said:

For a carbide scraper for fiberglass, are you talking about something like this? https://amazon.com/Red-Devil-3002-Carbide-Scraper/dp/B001SBNGDS. I can get one of those for $9.99 at a local home imrpovement store. —Thanks

Whether carbide or carbon steel consider a plain rectangular scraper in the 3” x 6” or 2.5” x 5” range. Sandvig makes some good ones though I prefer a standard carbon steel model like those offered by DFM. If you don’t go with carbide consider getting a new file that you only use for sharpening that scraper or soft materials. A burnishing rod is nice for shaping the burr but you can use the metal shaft of a chrome treated screwdriver shaft.

Jon
Https:3meterswell.blogspot.com

The carbide scraper I have is similar to the one in the link, but it doesn’t have the knob near the head. Although the knob isn’t necessary, I can see where it could improve control and would allow you to apply more pressure if necessary. I may try to add one to mine. The most important thing is the blade, which should be flat on one edge and curved on the other, so you can use it on a variety of surface contours. Mine is ~2" wide and I suspect that the one shown is the same. Brand-wise, mine is made by Bahco, but Sandvik and probably some other companies make similar products.

Chodups, your rationale is perfectly sound, especially if you’re using scrapers for woodworking or other precision tasks where the scraper may be producing the final surface. I like using steel scrapers on wood, though I have to admit that my scraper sharpening technique still needs some refining. Getting those perfect little curls can be a challenge.

IME, rough scraping fiberglass and gelcoat patches doesn’t require specific edge contours or a great deal of finesse, since all I’m doing is removing the bulk of the excess material before sanding it smooth. Carbide does this really well, without needing constant sharpening. It also works great with Kevlar, which is notoriously hard on cutting tools. That’s why I recommend them for this application.

Once again, I really appreciate all of the advice for a newbie at glass over wood repair. I can see the benefit of a flat steel scraper. You can vary the shape of the blade and really control the scraping process and obtain a precise finish. But with it comes the need to obtain the sharpening tools and develop the sharpening skills. So I do wonder if a carbide scraper wouldn’t be easier to use for a newbie doing an occasional repair?