ZACTLY
the sculling/bracing roll connection is often hard for paddlers who don’t have their roll nailed to grasp.
While I had pool lessons like a lot of people, I had to finish my own lessons on flat water with rolling.
I finally taught myself to reliably roll by being able to confidently high brace further and further over until I could do it while upside down.
One method anyway, but thinking of a roll as some sort of separate skill from bracing and sculling is not going to help you get a roll any faster.
you’re going to have to help me out
– Last Updated: May-04-05 1:54 PM EST –
I've posted on the same threads as you for at least year with you offering advice on a wide range of topics for technique, and you're telling me, up until a few months ago when you posted about your first rolls, you had no other support strokes, other than a "weak low brace".
Am I correct, or do I have my facts wrong?
misunderstand?
Since you have managed to come up already - I wouldn’t be too concerned about your level of understanding! Don’t get caught up in all the details now or you’ll confuse yourself to the point of not feeling what worked.
Nice work! You may find it again easily next time - or might not. My very first attempt was pre-videos and darn close. All that scrammbling about getting in and out does help! Then I pretty much went back to square one and didn’t do as well until right before I “got it” and has been consistent since. The attempts in between were needed to train the body.
Side note: I tried some float rolls too - but quickly abandoned it a I could feel that was teaching me to focus on the paddle too much - and muscle up - and other bad habits (Lou!!!).
Anyway, congrats! When you do watch the DVD you will know exactly what’s going on - unlike those who watch first and think they understand. Some of the stuff is just not what you think it is until you do it - but you’re already there. DVD will give you good reference points/visuals to tune things up now (and ways to help your partner learn).
“Driving knee”
“Driving knee” seems a much better description to me as well. “Kayak Roll” video talks “set up knee” and “rolling knee” which is a hell of a lot more instructive than anything about wiggling, twisting, or “flicking” hips.
No need to pause.
There are lots of older paddlers, including myself at 65. So keep at it! 
Learn high brace, then learn roll
Yes. That’s the Eric Jackson technique – first learn the deep high brace (capsize to body fully in the water; recover from there). Then, learn the roll as an extension of that.
Get his video… it’s excellent for learning this progression, which makes a lot of sense.
BTW, one reason I think this progression works is that the main trick to the deep high brace is to drive your head down into the water as you capsize, which is the opposite of the instinct to keep the head up and out of the water. But it’s really easy to teach – hit the water with your head, the harder the better. I believe that actually induces a partial hip snap which effects the recovery. It’s a lot easier to teach that than to teach keeping your head down during a full roll, where the insticnt to raise the head can be overwhelming. But if you’ve already got the head-down/hip-snap idea from bracing when you move to rolling, it’s a lot easier.
I did not learn things in this order. Perhaps as a result, I had to work on both roll and deep high brace recovery lots longer than I should have to get decent at them.
–David.
yup
I know it is for lack of a perfect term that “hip snap” has entered our paddling vocabulary, but it does confuse new kayakers who think we’re all salsa dancers or something. Also the “hip snap” concept is probably more applicable to a c-to-c roll while the “driving knee” concept" is more applicable to the sweep/screw/sculling roll.
Good stuff…
…assuming other kayakers are with you.
I know some say to never paddle alone - but 90% of us do sometimes, and some do 90% of the time.
The practice session before I actually rolled - I had another(non-roller)'s bow handy. It was the first time I was able to do many attempts, and I got very close to success. Next time (3 months later - with no assist) I nailed rolls in 2 different boats. The long session with help made a huge difference (so did trying another tighter boat - which for some reason made the driving knee light bulb go on and up I came).
Harder to make a similar list for solo paddlers without it being a bunch of “hip flicks” hanging off a dock, paddle float rolls, frequent rest breaks, etc.
The method on Jay Babina’s “1st Roll” tape works well for solo practice (extended paddle sweep roll). This alone make it worth the price if you want to work on rolling by yourself. It basically works in backward order, and from shallow to deeper water. This lets you stay in the cockpit through the whole process. I should have gotten this video sooner, but it still was helpful even if I didn’t really use his method. I did use it a little bit for onside and it really helped get me past an awkward spaz point almost instantly.
Sounds like you have your facts right…
… except your time frame’s off a bit.
But then, why wouldn’t you? I’ve never posted anything inconsistent or claiming otherwise. Maybe if I were certified it would be easier for you to keep score? 
greyak, I was editing my reply and
somehow the session clocked on me and dorked your post, I did not delete it.
Sorry you lost what you wrote if it was my fault.
I read your comments, and I think your enthusiasm is great.
Keep up the skills development.
I am not in competition with anyone but myself, and don’t have time to perform searches on
anything but things I “need” to find out.
If I was in competition with other folks I would get discouraged very quickly, there is always someone better/smarter/faster and more able than me, and I’m certain there are areas of paddling you excel at, speed might indeed be one of them, because I am not focused on racing at all. Frankly I wasn’t keeping track, I was just astonished at how loud your keyboard is on technique and then hear your comments about your bracing which is quite a basic skill.
I have fun during any banter here, and even more so with someone as loud as you, if it wasn’t fun I wouldn’t do it.
Keep up the good work!
Nope - my bad!
I opted to replace with the short answer since you’d already had a chance to read to long winded recap of the past 2 years.
Loud keyboard? Techniques are techniques. Many of us practice them, none of us own them. I’m not sure why my contributions seem to surprise you. I posted very little about doing braces or rolls before about 8 months ago when I began doing them myself - except for questions. We all learn when we learn.
My lack of brace was part of my lack of roll - they go hand in hand. This deficiency of a “basic” skill (which I consider both braces and rolls to be) has been corrected for many months now, and will be worked on for as long as I paddle. The first year I paddled a SINK, I never needed the brace (not in surf zone much)- and wouldn’t push a lean much pre-roll - and was working more on simple seat time and GP forward stroke (which served me well when I did get to these things as the paddle, kayak, and I were well acquainted by then - a familiarity with the gear my girlfriend does not have and which will make her progress with bracing/sculling/rolling slower).
One doesn’t need to be a greybeard or rated to understand the benefit and interrelation of these skills - or to discuss and share their perceptions and experiences, however limited or recent they may be.
I honestly have never needed to throw a high brace - or use any of a number of strokes you may have practiced from day one. I learn them because it’s fun - and I’m sure I will need them as I play offshore more (and of course wise if I travel North). Now that I’m rolling easy, it’s no big deal to work on just about anything. All in good time. My progress suits my needs.
I think my fairly recent acquiring of some of these things makes it easy to communicate some concepts to those almost there - as I still clearly remember what “almost” rolling feels like (though it is fading fast as things get progressively easier). It is in this spirit I post frequently on these things now.
The easier something gets/the better someone gets at it - the harder it can be to communicate/relate it to those who can’t. Unless they are very gifted teachers, “expert” and “advanced” paddlers can be the hardest to try to learn from. This is not unique to paddling.
Anyway - maybe now my posts are in better context for you?
everyone learns at a different rate
– Last Updated: May-05-05 7:52 AM EST –
and learns different skills at different times.
I think as it related to this post, and skills, it would be nice to see more people progress from bracing to rolling, but I think that doesn't happen very often, I don't know.
I may have been a freak in that I did work on bracing and progressed to rolling.
Also for what it's worth, I also had a sort of undeveloped series of skills. Short version of this is, I went to a class with Nigel Foster about 3 years ago for directional control, and thinking it would be quite basic, because I thought I already knew how to turn my kayak, was completely shamed into humility by my lack of ability to duplicate even the concepts he was teaching in the class. I was the "WORST" student in the class, I had to roll about 3 times from trying to edge my kayak and throw ruddering strokes. Foster had to come over several times just to repeat things to me. I felt like a total L-O-S-E-R. But, I was charged to learn all the directional strokes after this, and bought the video and took another class after that where I did much better.
And to this date other folks still give me good advice, some of whom, have not been paddling as long as me. And shudder I also take advice and suggestions from paddlers who aren't bcu, namely airwave and bobdobbs. Who are both terrific paddlers by the way, and they both have the anti-certify position too.
THANK YOU
– Last Updated: May-05-05 8:01 AM EST –
GREYAK: "The first year I paddled a SINK, I never needed a brace and wouldn't push a lean..."
I guess I HAVE been keeping pace with your progression after all. It has been a year for me in a SINK and I have been pushing leans for aZ while.
Bravo!
>I think my fairly recent acquiring of some of these things makes it easy to communicate some concepts to those almost there - as I still clearly remember what “almost” rolling feels like (though it is fading fast as things get progressively easier). <
Agree 100%!
We need the prospective of both the expert and the “almost get it” crowd.
Some of the “expert” have this “I know it all” attitude which discouragte the “non-experts” from giving advice. There’s a different take on the saying “he forgets more than we’ll ever know”: maybe one of what they “forget” is how hard it was to learn?
Roll before brace – OK, but…
Yep, I too learned to roll before bracing. But it took me a while to really get it down. Actually, I rolled repeatedly in my first rolling class, but then spent the next two years losing and regaining it, burning in and unlearning bad habits, etc, before I could say I “had” it.
And yes, I used my roll to help me learn to scull and brace… used it to recover from failed sculls and braces that is. That certainly helped me to improve my combat (non-setup) roll, but it really made little direct contribution to sculling and bracing. In fact, I got the deep high brace essentially immediately after reading a good how-to in SK Mag – worked on the first try. Then I saw the same technique (drive head into water) in the Jackson video and – bada-bing!
Anyway, such a history of repeated failure is exactly what the Jackson method (brace before roll) is designed to avoid. You get it correct from the start, and in a sequence that develops and burns in good habits, rather than developing and then “fixing” bad ones.
That said, I do see the problem of learning to brace without having a roll… failure means a swim. But you can always have someone standing by with a bow (yes, learn bow rescue first!).
Well, I may try the Jackson technique out soon on someone very close to me who is getting to the point of interest in rolling. Letcha know how it works out… and if that person is still “close” afterwards. ;-)))
–David.
Jim
– Last Updated: May-05-05 4:17 PM EST –
In that first year I did more wet exits/recoveries and other non-roll/brace practice than you'll do in 5 (which isn't much *L*!). When you finally realize paddling is an IN WATER sport - and wetter is better - then we can talk! *L*
I also suspect our ideas of what "pushing" it on edging and leaning mean may differ by several degrees or tilt. Basically, if you can do it with skirt open/off and not ship water - it's not pushing it.
Having to resort to a wet exit really limits how far you are willing to go as the consequence (in the form of a slow and tiring paddle float rescue) are too high. Being reluctant to get wet as you are complicates it further.
What you do is perfectly fine for what you do. I only get on your case about foot dragging and other nonsense like you saying the water here is too cold to practice in(!) when you say want to do more...
If you didn't paddle so damn early I could show you just how easy this stuff is!
Maybe this is just…
… a personal difference thing. Some do better one way, some the other.
Same with eyes open or closed underwater thing. I am naturally an eyes open underwater person - I have to fight my natural response and consciously keep them closed (to protect my contacts). Many are the exact opposite and reflexively shut them in the water. No right or wrong - just different. I don’t need to see to roll - I just naturally look around in the water. Always have.
There are lots of things like this.
Could be a personal difference thing…
… but there really could also be some universal principles here, or at least widely applicable principles. In general, there ~are~ better and not so good ways to teach almost anything. Disentangling such universals from individual differences is, of course, what makes teaching an art. But finding those universals is the “duty” of the teaching profession as a whole.
That said, my own personal opinion is that rolling is taught first today because of its “sex appeal”, not because that’s inherently a better way. It may still be a better way for a significant fraction of paddlers, but I’m betting that, assuming both are skillfully taught, brace-before-roll will generally work better than roll-before-brace. It’s just that very few people ever even try the former way, because of the “sex appeal” of the latter.
I do urge anybody interested in this issue to look at the Jackson video before setting their opinion in stone.
–David.
i think a wise
person would question anyone’s experience, regardless of their claims to expertise.
"taught first "
Well, since no one taught me really - except two videos that approach basically the same roll from opposite order - and with different things to work on - (and a lot of great info from folks on QajaqUSA boards) I am without anything set in stone. Probably why I see this as more of a chicken/egg thing than seeing any being better way in all of it.
BTW - I will pick up EJs video - as I’m curious what’s so different. In my mind the more approaches you have to this stuff the better. Looking at many approaches helped me see what was really at the heart of these skills instead of getting caught up in details. For me it simplified things - for others it might only confuse or complicate. More “focused” or “by the numbers” type learners might be better served picking one order of progression and type of roll/brace and sticking with it - before looking at other approaches.