True, if you do it alone
Having another paddler standing by to give a bow rescue, or someone standing by to give a hand-of-god rescue changes everything. My wife and I trade back and forth. I practice and she stands ready with a bow rescue. She practices and I do the same. When EJ teaches he is in his boat right beside the learner. Then he only has to reach over to keep a person from falling back in. Knowing you can try anything and not have to swim makes a huge difference.
The Depth Wasn’t The Issue
With getting the high brace right, but the mechanics and positioning such as where my head is during the brace, how the brace ends (told that this prevents revisiting “the drink” after a roll), where the hands are etc.
Lou
Different stroke for different folks
Nowhere is this more appropriate than in kayaking!
A lot depends on your background, fitness level, and a lot of other factors.
It would be impossible to learn to roll without knowing at least a rudimentory brace, knowing how to scull even better. But I think you don’t have to be “good at” either to learn to roll. That’s when the chicken vs egg comes in. Knowing how to roll makes practicing brace/scull/edging a great deal easier.
I learn to roll pretty early on in my kayaking “career”. Once I got the roll, it’s easier to grasp the concept of edging/bracing/rolling. So if I failed and went over, I simply roll back up!
But, after a long break from kayaking, I had to re-gain my roll. That’s when I found praticing sculling helps a great deal. And the hip snap can be praticed togather with bracing pratice.
So, the two sets of skills complemented each other. Try both, you might find one easier than the other. Alternate working on each, it’ll help you master the other.
Perhaps The Answer Is "It Doesn’t Matter
It seems like there are many common elements to all of these techniques. Learn one well, and the others become easier.
Being a classaholic, I can say with certainty that while instructors will vary on what to do first, each one has a definite opinion and will guide the student, either roll first or brace first.
same here
I honestly didn’t have the opportuntity to learn bracing until I knew how to roll. Being able to roll up gave me the chance to play with the inbetween. Otherwise it was playacting up to the capsize point or a very small component of bracing in a forward/sweep/sculling stroke.
classaholic
– Last Updated: May-03-05 11:25 PM EST –
How's that working out for you?
Classes are still on my list of things to do someday...
Regarding the roll/brace learning order - I think it does matter, but which way will be most effective depends on the individual.
impossible?
…“impossible to learn to roll without knowing at least a rudimentary brace…”
I learned to roll, on my own, with NO ability to high brace and no side scull/sculling brace (sculling draws and adding some scull/sweep to a forward stroke for added support - or a little bit of reverse sweep as a weak low brace was about all I could do). I added those soon AFTER the first successful rolls.
Like others above, I would not flop over enough to learn/practice a brace before I could roll. The idea that I could go all the way down to torso in the water and bounce right back up on same side (or hang out there and scull) did not seem too likely. Once rolling, it made perfect sense.
Different strokes indeed. No real disagreement - except with that word “impossible” which has no business in a discussion of skills development! 
For strong paddles only
The feet first paddle float entry puts a lot of pressure on the paddle shaft. Not recommended for ultralight or wood paddles.
Bad advice for most people
As a lifeguard, doing a porpoise jump straight out of the water to mount a kayak might seem like a good method to you, but to regular folks with average swimming ability and physiques, it’s not likely to work. Swimming across the boat and pulling it under you, as abc suggested above, is a better plan.
Hey GreYak
Kris,
A short update of results.
I went out for a short “practice” paddle after work yesterday.
I wanted to try three things that p-netters had suggested over the past several days in terms of self rescues.
I was able to empty a lot more water out of my cockpit and do it easier by changing my position further forward for the lift and throw.
I tried just swimming onto the stern rather than slinging my leg over the paddle and climbing on. This is far easier for me and I am glad someone suggested it.
I read about another self rescue where you start with the boat on its side, (cockpit is half full of water), enter and use your paddle/paddle float to lever yourself up. This turns out to be the easiest re-entry that Ive tried for me, but has the disadvantage of leaving more water to pump out.
Well, I played around with the rescues for about an hour and a half. I deceided to find out what I was in for in terms of a roll. I have not received the DVD instructional video yet, and I dont have a firm idea of exactly where all the body parts are supposed to be nor how they are supposed to work. I have read about a dozen differant roll write ups and things are pretty mixed up right now.
I made it up on my fifth try which pleased me no end. I continued through the eleventh try without a repeated sucsess and took a break. Sat on the beach thinking through things and deceided that Id give it one more try and then had to head home. I almost made it up and deceided Id go home for the day.
I have kid sports committments and wont be able to go out for a rematch until Monday. But I feel like I will be able to get a crude roll under my belt next week. And I will have the video to help likely this weedend. And I have a class scheduled for the fourteenth. One way or the other I will get there.
Mark
Way The Go!
Thanks
Thanks Sing!!
i don’t buy it…
I’m a 24 year old male paddler who helps out in kayaking classes. The problems with older women are rarely physical but rather mental. Since so much of kayaking is technique, very rarely does introductory skills rely on a high degree of strength/flexibility. I absolutely HATE the defeated attitudes many people come to class with and LOVE teaching those eager to learn regardless of age. Heck I’ve paddled with beginner kayakers nearing 80 years of age but with a strong desire to learn. The older women tend to be more stubborn about what they can and cannot do and more tentative about taking chances. If they don’t have the physical skills to do a paddle float rescue, a re-entry and roll or a sling method can be easily taught to accomodate. It’s when they start using their age/strength/flexibility as an excuse not to learn and claim skills to be “impossible” that I can’t follow their line of thinking.
I think you might be misunderstanding
the point.
A roll is just a high brace underwater.
That
is an understatement. I am sure that I do in fact misunderstand.
And I am sure that as I put all of the pieces of info together and continue to learn the techniques, and get a little formal instruction, that I will begin to understand a bit.
Mark
To Confuse You More…
some of the rolls aren’t extreme braces but more sweeps and akin to sculling. Rolls without paddle are hip flicks.
sing
No Roll Back Yet
The week before last, I was taught a half roll drill using a paddle float which was fun, got me real comfortable with flipping over, as well as placement of my hand on the hull during the roll. This week I corrected some bad habits I had developed in my high brace. At the end of class, one of my instructors and I agreed that next week (the last class) it was roll or bust. Stay tuned on this one.
My non-professional assessment is as follows. Most of the instructors I have worked with teach a C to C roll as the first roll. This roll has always eluded me, as I tend to rely too much on my (imperfect) brace (pulling down on the paddle) and not enough on the hip flick while executing this roll. I have a good hip flick, I just need to learn to use it at the right time. When I learned to roll the first time, I was being coached by a generous (p.net) person, who taught me more of what I think was a screw roll (like on the “Kayak Roll” video) using a progressively deflated paddle float. This type of roll causes me to focus more on the hip flick, as the sweep and the hip flick seem to be one fluid motion that I can grock easily.
The bottom line is that I’m enjoying the journey and learning a lot of new things with each person who teaches me. I actually think I could teach myself if I don’t get it next week. I may need to buy an inflatable float (I have a foam float) to do it myself.
Thanks for asking…Lou
Minimal Kit of Rescues
1. Bow rescue (also called the Eskimo rescue). We teach that in the first session of our pool classes. It is easy to do and often possible to do. Not useful if you paddle alone or too far away from others.
2. Reenter and roll using a paddle float. Simple in concept and easy to learn and execute. You don’t have to be able to roll with just a paddle to do this. The paddle float provides enough support that you only need to know how to hip snap. I am always mystified why people teach the traditional paddle float self rescue when this is easier.
3. Hand of god rescue from a boat. Very much like a bow rescue except the rescuer does it all. Easier to do than a bow rescue if you are parallel to the boat that has flipped.
4. Rafting together. This is technically not a rescue but is a good way to safely “weather” bad conditions or to keep another paddler from flipping over who is injured, seasick, or whatever.
5. The simplest and fastest version of assisted rescue with the person to be rescued swimming. Put the boats parallel and bow to stern. Get the swimmer into their boat. The crab reentry is fast and easy if you do it right. Stay rafted until the former swimmer pumps out their boat. See 4. above.
Be able to do all of the above before you try to learn anything else and you will be equiped to handle most situations.
Thanks Sing
Yes, there are more types and techniques than I could imagine. I am going to concentrate on whatever the instructor chooses as his/her roll of choise and work on that. When I get to a reasonable state with that roll then I will start experimenting with some of the others. And, I am sure learn which to use under various conditions and for what type of need.
thanks again,
Mark
well if we’re confusing people…
a sculling/sweep roll would just be a form of an extreme sweeping brace wouldn’t it? a hand roll would still be a bracing roll and a “driving knee” would probably be a better description than hip flick.