Playing around yesterday with some different strokes and noted that my reverse sweep is more effective than my forward sweep (more degrees turned per stroke). I was going to try again in a couple of days to see if this is a reliable difference, but in going over some old notes, I saw that I had previously written this down, so for me it does appear to be reliable. Curious if others find this to be true (or, for example, if I maybe just have better form on the reverse sweep; or if it is boat-dependent)? As a practical matter, it suggests that if I want to spin around quickly, maybe I should just do reverse sweeps rather than alternating which is what I would probably otherwise do. In fact, there’s that video by Leon Somme showing what he calls the Highighi which basically just looks to me like serial reverse sweeps. He says it is an especially quick way to turn around.
Probably somewhat dependent on hulk shape and trim. Different strokes for different boats, to some degree.
@Yanoer said:
Probably somewhat dependent on hulk shape and trim. Different strokes for different boats, to some degree.
If I were Hulk shaped, I don’t think it would make much difference forward or reverse. I’d probably snap the paddle blade off, or break the boat in two…if I could even fit inside. 
Turning stokes are usually more effective at the stern than at the bow, so the same would be true with the stern draw or a stern pry. A reverse sweep is a good turning stroke, but it also tends to kill any forward momentum.
I think the Haghighi is more than just a standard reverse sweep. There’s a lot of blade finesse involved, as Leon explains in the video. My forward and reverse sweeps seem about equal - have never tried the Haghighi.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBVh6LquFYU
This one’s on my short list of things to try/practice when the water’s warmed up. I expect much of the initial practicing will be inverted…
I never noticed before but he only does it on the left side in that video.
@eckilson said:
Turning stokes are usually more effective at the stern than at the bow, so the same would be true with the stern draw or a stern pry. A reverse sweep is a good turning stroke, but it also tends to kill any forward momentum.
Hmmm…I can imagine that that is true while underway due to the pressure difference at bow vs stern. Given that though, I have wondered why the bow rudder is a turning stroke whereas the stern rudder is, as I have heard and read many times, more of a keep-you-going straight maneuver. In turning classes, I’ve been taught the bow rudder and low and high brace turns, but the maneuver where you put the blade towards the back of the boat more-or-less parallel to the hull but angled out a bit (for a pry) is not used to make significant turns but is usually taught to keep the boat going straight (e.g., down the face of a wave) as it starts to veer. If the stern is so loosey-goosey while underway, wouldn’t a stern rudder be a more effective than a bow rudder for turning.
I agree that it depends somewhat on the boat. I’d be inclined to argue that in general, reverse sweeps will be more effective for turning downwind, and forward sweeps more effective for turning upwind. If I have backwards momentum, a forward sweep is more effective. If I have forward momentum, a backwards sweep is more effective. For example, if I do a couple backwards sweeps, and I find my momentum starting to go backwards, I go to a forward sweep on the opposite side to continue turning if need be.
The contraption he demonstrates on in the video shows paddle motion, which unfortunately probably leaves out the most important part of turning. Feel free to argue points here. I find that anytime I focus on paddle motion in the water for movement, whether it be for the forward stroke, or any maneuvering stroke, things have never come together for me very well. When I focus on a planted blade, and think about moving my kayak past, or around, the planted blade, things come together much better. I start focusing on contact points and the direction of pressure of my body against the kayak and the like. It’s a split deal in reality. He does a reverse sweep, and part of it is the boat turning towards the shaft. The other part is the shaft slipping through water. My experience is that I can do the same thing with the paddle motion, and have very different results through different pressure points of emphasis inside the cockpit. And I know body, boat, blade is all about contact points. So you demonstrate what you can, and that’s a pretty cool contraption for demonstration. It’s just unfortunate that it can’t capture the idea of a planted blade, and the feel of turning your kayak around it. It helps me a lot to take my focus off of the paddle.
Pay attention to how much you’re rotating your torso, how much you wind and unwind, and where your contact points are in the cockpit, when you do a reverse sweep. Then think about what you can do to match that for a forward sweep. But I know different boats tend to have different sweet spots for maneuvering. It’s a lot of fun playing around with it all.
@Monkeyhead said:
@eckilson said:
Turning stokes are usually more effective at the stern than at the bow, so the same would be true with the stern draw or a stern pry. A reverse sweep is a good turning stroke, but it also tends to kill any forward momentum.Hmmm…I can imagine that that is true while underway due to the pressure difference at bow vs stern.
That’s right - I’m an open boater, so coming from a little different place. I do try to control the boat from the bow with forward and cross forward strokes, but if you start to lose the angle it is easy to go back to the stern to get things back on track with a stern pry or stern draw.
@Monkeyhead said:
As a practical matter, it suggests that if I want to spin around quickly, maybe I should just do reverse sweeps rather than alternating which is what I would probably otherwise do. In fact, there’s that video by Leon Somme showing what he calls the Highighi which basically just looks to me like serial reverse sweeps. He says it is an especially quick way to turn around.
That Haghighi is a cool stroke, but for an onside turn (which is what he would be doing in a canoe) there are certainly other options. I usually do a box stroke (stern pry, in water recovery bow draw, in water recovery - looks like a box) to spin the boat to the on side. If you want to maintain momentum, I think your reverse sweep/forward sweep combination would be better, but it might not turn you as quickly. What he is doing looks to me like a reverse sweeping low brace (reverse sweep to a bow draw).
Terminology is different, but the strokes are all the same.
My experience in deciding what to do to turn the boat is very dependent on conditions and what the boat is doing at the time. If wind isn’t a factor, I use an off camber edge and bow rudder. If I’m surfing and in the right position on the wave, a forceful stern rudder and maybe edging into the turn, but if the wind is strong and turning into the wind is the goal, sometimes just brute force bow sweeps is the only thing that works. I have seen paddlers put the boat on extreme edge and spin the boat–(both ends out of the water), but only in more, or less benign conditions.
Dave, with your Sterling, you should be able to make a 180 if you have good forward momentum, lean away from the turn and use a bow rudder on the high side with the skeg down. I did it several times in a Sterling; it’s easy, not unstable and probably best done in a Sterling, but I can do the same in my Sirocco, but I only get about 130 degrees. Of course in the Sirocco it’s skeg up. I think in the Sterling it works best with the skeg down as it pivots at the skeg. I don’t think I ever tried it with the skeg up, but it would be interesting to see which works best.
My bow rudder involves inverting the paddle and slanting the paddle toward the bow. I moderate the depth and angle of the paddle blade to maintain forward speed as needed. As the turn seems to be about as complete as it is going to get, the paddle is then in position to rotate the blade and finish up with a forward stroke. That might seem a little less than intuitive, but by then the turning is all but over and there’s no sense in wasting a forward stoke setup.
Reverse sweeps make you use torso rotation… You have to. Forward you might be inclined to cheat and not use the spring of your torso.
In canoeing this is called a post. The physics and edging are the same.
@magooch said:
My experience in deciding what to do to turn the boat is very dependent on conditions and what the boat is doing at the time. If wind isn’t a factor, I use an off camber edge and bow rudder. If I’m surfing and in the right position on the wave, a forceful stern rudder and maybe edging into the turn, but if the wind is strong and turning into the wind is the goal, sometimes just brute force bow sweeps is the only thing that works. I have seen paddlers put the boat on extreme edge and spin the boat–(both ends out of the water), but only in more, or less benign conditions.Dave, with your Sterling, you should be able to make a 180 if you have good forward momentum, lean away from the turn and use a bow rudder on the high side with the skeg down. I did it several times in a Sterling; it’s easy, not unstable and probably best done in a Sterling, but I can do the same in my Sirocco, but I only get about 130 degrees. Of course in the Sirocco it’s skeg up. I think in the Sterling it works best with the skeg down as it pivots at the skeg. I don’t think I ever tried it with the skeg up, but it would be interesting to see which works best.
My bow rudder involves inverting the paddle and slanting the paddle toward the bow. I moderate the depth and angle of the paddle blade to maintain forward speed as needed. As the turn seems to be about as complete as it is going to get, the paddle is then in position to rotate the blade and finish up with a forward stroke. That might seem a little less than intuitive, but by then the turning is all but over and there’s no sense in wasting a forward stoke setup.
Interesting idea about the using the skeg given it’s near-center position in the GI. I’ll have to give that a try.
That Haghighi is a cool stroke, but for an onside turn (which is what he would be doing in a canoe) there are certainly other options. I usually do a box stroke (stern pry, in water recovery bow draw, in water recovery - looks like a box) to spin the boat to the on side. If you want to maintain momentum, I think your reverse sweep/forward sweep combination would be better, but it might not turn you as quickly. What he is doing looks to me like a reverse sweeping low brace (reverse sweep to a bow draw).
I agree with eckilson. In a canoe, I find that there are strokes you can do much closer to the hull, and therefore using a vertically oriented paddle shaft, that would do a substantially quicker job of spinning the boat around, whether stationary, and especially in that illustrated situation of moving forward. Sometimes, though, initiating a turn-around with a reverse sweep as shown in the clip is a good method. I just wouldn’t be following through with additional sweeps like that because sweeps just aren’t that efficient when you want to change heading quickly. But again, with a single blade and the ability to reach a substantial distance forward or backward while still keeping the paddle mostly vertical, certain stroke options are much easier.