look up
when you set up, try to touch your right shoulder to the deck. then, when you capsize, as you move the paddle to the surface of the water look up to the sky/surface, keeping your left shoulder back so that you shoulders are parallel to the surface. then sweep the paddle along the surface keeping your shoulders parallel to the surface, looking up all the while. do not let the left shoulder carry your body perpendicular to the surface. if your shoulders go vertical, the paddle will dive and the role will fail. finish by sliding onto the back deck looking up at the sky. simple mantra: capsize, setup, nose up, sweep to sky on back deck.
It ain’t the number of classes but…
Lou, I absolutely agree that you need to work with a person. From one had been a hard case to another, it ain’t the number of classes but whether you have found the right one yet. And once you have the backlog of bad experiences that you have had, finding the right situation can be more difficult. I say again, you need to go back to working with teachers.
you are re-inventing the wheel
or rather the roll. Everyone has their own rolling style and technique, but they are all based on the same physics principals. Once you start rolling you find the way that is easiest for you. But, you have to start rolling first.
I don’t know how long you have been trying to learn, but it should not take more than a few weeks of steady sessions. Trying to learn on your own, while admirable, is the least effective way to learn.
There is usually a phrase, exercise, or something else that causes the learner to say ‘ah-ha!’ and then start rolling. A good instructor will work to find what it takes for you to learn how to roll.
Does Yoda teach rolling?
“There is no try, only do, or do not!”
Persistence may be an admirable trait, but can often just be dog-headed stubbornness posing as noble effort. I detect enough resistance in Lou’s posts to changing his approach to suspect there’s something more than meets the keyboard here.
Lou’s comments about all the lessons that haven’t worked, his mixing/matching/and improvising learning techniques to an extent that seems guaranteed to prevent success, the way he insists on muddling along on his own while dodging all help offers until next year…
Two questions for you Lou:
- How’s all that been workin’ for ya?
- Is there any GOOD reason you can’t take some of these folks up on their help offers - NOW - while weather and water are still good?
I’m sure some of these folks could get you going - if you’ll let them, listen to them, and do as they say/show (not as you think) - and leave you with a solid foundation you can build on (aka - a reliable roll on at least one side).
From there you could spend the pool time this Winter working on variations and other rolls on both sides. Useful experimentation vs. the fruitless floundering you are so eager to keep spending your available water time on.
Just wondering…
Over two years now
I recall one of the first posts on pnet that I ever read was from lou. Same topic, same comments.
I started kayaking in July of 2005.
I remember a friend of mine that every time he went up for a job promotion, he would spend weeks talking about how he was not going to get it because of his age, or some other nonsense, and when he didn’t get the job he could say “you see?”
I am hearing the exact same type of defeatist attitude from you Lou. Over two years now you have been saying the same thing. Offers abound to try and help.
why won’t you acept them?
paul
Self Talk
I personally think a highly under-considered aspect of having a bad time at rolling…
There was a point that I hit where the most damaging thing was the assumption in my head when under the boat and set up, where all that is left is the motion. At the moment I was upright I would say, and believe, that I was capable of rolling. But what was in my head every time when I was down there waiting to move was that I wouldn’t make it that time. It was obviously self-fulfilling. I still remember the first time that I rolled up with the assumption in my head that I would get up. I hadn’t realized how pervasive the other had become.
I may be reaching here as to what is going on. But I found that once that cycle started it took a completely new approach to get by it. Same old just didn’t work.
actually, Lou’s been trying
to get his roll since 2002:
http://www.paddling.net/message/showThread.html?fid=advice&tid=18154#18398
After year 5, a fresh approach is needed with a good instructor. Other methods or mixtures of methods clearly don’t yield desired results. Quite the contrary, they likely have ingrained bad technique and mental barriers.
I know about this. Took my first rolling class (pool)in April and it was a flop due to a very loose skirt, slippery knee grip, no thigh braces (small cockpit, thought I didn’t need 'em)) AND above all my mental determination.
Put it all aside for four months (except that I practiced my hip snap and snugged up my cockpit outfitting). Didn’t look at videos, ask wellmeaning friends to teach me, take any more rolling classes,nada. I worked on bracing, rescues, other strokes, other skills, and had a good time paddling in different places, including Lake Michigan.
Took my next lesson in fresh water on August 18 at the Ladies of the Lake kayak symposium. The very capable instructor had me rolling using the layback sweep roll in under 15 minutes. That day was exactly one year since I first started kayaking. Now I have a lot of practice ahead of me, but I know I can do it and how easy it is when I do.
My point is not whoopee for me, as I’m no exceptional athlete in any sense, but that taking a fresh start and being ready to learn with a good instructor can make all the difference.
Long time
"I don’t know how long you have been trying to learn,"
A very, very long time.
Lou
since you’ve been trying since '02
(I remember you posting for a long time, didn’t realize it’s been THAT long)
When you actually get serious about learning…go find a gathering like Delmarva.
A gathering of people that can help…I believe that if you haven’t mastered this by now on your own…it you do get any kind of a roll it will be a hit and miss roll
You need a gathering of good instructors (Delmarva) or some similar gathering.
In your case it would pay to go hang out at Delmarva, if it’s at all possiable…even if its full.
otherwise pay the bucks and go wherever Turner and Cheri or Greg Stamer are…or travel to Walden Pond to learn from Will or Dan…
Hate to tell you, but you definatly need experianced help. not another movie or vidio clip showing how easy this beginers skill is.
This rolling thing is NOT an advanced skill. Not a basic roll anyway
Best Wishes
Roy
rolling
I think you hit it on the head. rolling is a basic skill. as you do more of it you try different variations and if you get pretty good, the entire experience of being underwater in any position will enable you to get back up. (In other words, not from a set up position) elbow rolls, brick rolls, straight jacket rolls etc are fun but as sure as god made little green apples, if I go down unintentionally, I am not going to be thinking hmmm here is a perfect opportunity for an elbow roll…I will get up the easiest and least strenuous way I can so I can deal with whatever knocked me over in the first place.
Delmarva. do it. I bet you could still get in. Contact Ed Zachowski from QajaqUSA via e-mail and see if they can get you in even for just a day. I guarantee that if you work with Cheri Perry, Freya Hoffmeister, Greg Stamer, Dubside, Turner Wilson, Shawn Baker, Ben Fuller, Alison, or any number of wonderful teachers, you will be rolling by mid morning.
ezachowski@aoti.net
write him now!
It has been 5 years. Many many offers of help. kinda makes you wonder if your inability to roll is actually preferred?
Paul
Pawlata
Jay’s excellent video shows a Pawlata, or standard Greenland roll. Although this is shown using an extended paddle, the technique is really a layback sweep roll and works equally well using an extended paddle, a non-extended paddle, a throwing stick, your hand, or even no hands. Yes, even the “straightjacket” roll is the same simple technique, only highly-refined.
There are forward leaning rolls too, but if you can see that most rolls are just variations on the same couple of techniques, you will lessen any potential confusion.
Your questions about whether or not your body should be near the surface and about the roll setup, shows that you don’t yet have a good mental image of the roll. Rolling is not about what your paddle is doing, but what your body is doing. Your kayak responds to your body movements. As you lean away from your kayak and bend up toward the surface your kayak responds by starting to lay on its side. You then use your paddle or hands to gain a little support while you roll the kayak back under your hips.
Greg Stamer
I hear what you are saying
In response to your feedabck, I have made one inquiry. However, there are two reasons why I think twice about dropping everything to do this:
- My time is very limited.
- I have studied under 4 ACA instructors so far, and while I have thoroughly enjoyed each session, I still didn’t roll.
It’s still worth consideration. And I do appreciate your feedback.
Lou
Delmarva
"Contact Ed Zachowski from QajaqUSA via e-mail and see if they can get you in even for just a day."
It’s all or none (for about $250). No single days, apparently.
Greenland Paddle
Extended.
It’s like pushing off the bottom.
Not everybody can roll
– Last Updated: Sep-19-07 5:08 PM EST –
Not everybody can roll and there are a few very-good sea kayakers who do not (eg, Audrey Sutherland).
It's hard to imagine that there is some secret key out there that you haven't heard multiple times before.
It will be pretty much impossible for people to give advice with out having any idea how you are trying to roll.
Maybe, you should find something easier to do, like brain surgery! It's possible that your time spent might be better spent doing something else.
Everybody…
I think that almost everyone can learn to roll given the right work and time and circumstances (including an apt boat). BUT - and it’s a big one - for many people the difficulty and time involved is more than they want to do given their need. I know a number of people who only paddle in flat water and usually with company. They feel that a paddle float solo rescue or assisted will handle their needs, and they practice these so they know they can do it. When these guys find rolling extremely challenging, they often decide that the percentages just aren’t there. They are probably right.
I sympathize. I didn’t stick with learning to roll because it was easy, in fact I was a loong and embarassing time at it. I stuck with it because I wanted to sea kayak and I didn’t see any safe way to do that without getting a roll. If I didn’t want to paddle big water and improve my skills, I probably wouldn’t have stayed the course.
Lou has most certainly done that. The question now is how to get out of the almost-there spiral.
Limited time
Lou,
If your time is very limited then that’s the best reason to find a good instructor. I learned to roll from a book and it took me much longer than if I had had competent instruction. Keep searching until you find an instructor that can make it click for you.
Regarding the sentiment that not everybody can learn to roll, I know a partially paralyzed woman who learned to roll. Quite an amazing person. Usually the biggest obstacle to rolling is mental and simply knowing what to do.
Greg Stamer
Lou
just because someone is ACA doesn’t mean that they can sucessfully teach rolling.
Many still teach one of the newest yet poorest first rolls on the planet. a roll that came about mainly because of the high combings on the early WW boats. The boats have now evolved backwards , to lower rear decks and lower volume than the early models on the market. In effect, the boats themselves have made the new/old C 2 C roll an antique. The rolls that stood the test of time thru hundereds of years are now the modern roll and the roll of the future.
Many ACA still teach this antique roll. A roll that is all or none…all in one shot , you either make it or you reset and try again. This roll can be done very slow and methodically if you are very good at it. Most just use force.
The C2C is not the easiest roll to learn as a first roll.
The easiest (my opinion) are either the angel roll or the standard sweep roll.
You need an instructor that is familiar with more than just one kind of roll and who is intimatly familiar with rolling and teaching rolling.
Get in your car and spend some gas. 5 years working on something this basic is not almost anywhere. In 5 years you should have been doing many differant rolls and know without a doubt that you have really got it.
Best Wishes
Roy
way to stick it to him, greg
I know a man with one eye and no arms who learned how to roll too! Come on buddy, what’s the problem?!?!
Greenland Paddle
Extended.
It’s like having a paddle float on a euro.