lessons
don’t need to do delmarva (though am looking forward to my first time there) as folks like turner and cheri do private lessons: priceless.
Not trying to stick it to anybody
… but actually to empower Lou. If you don’t think you can roll, you can’t. If you know that you will succeed, you will - eventually. Dogged persistence is a great asset. Lou has certainly showed persistence, which is why some good instruction could make his dream of rolling a reality.
I’m just not a fan of the “everybody can’t roll” argument. While I’m sure there are obvious cases where it’s true, when you meet challenges in kayaking that prove difficult to learn it’s always dangerous to blame your boat, your lack of flexibility, etc.
Greg Stamer
That’s why a good instructor is worth $$
You have spent several years trying to “get it”. Instead of looking for a 5th ACA instructor who may only repeat the same routine the others have tried with you, listen to the suggestions for other instructors already provided in this thread. They probably have a very different approach.
I get a kick out of watching people trying to teach a friend how to roll their WW boat (on flat water). They ALWAYS try to teach the C to C, with poor results. There is something about that all-or-nothing timing that is very intimidating if you haven’t rolled already.
If something isn’t working, maybe it’s time to try a different approach instead of banging your head against the wall forever.
What kind of boat? paddle?
What boat? GP or Euro?
Do you have good thigh bracing in your boat?
Some big kayaks where the paddler is sliding around with no thigh bracing are almost impossible for beginners to learn to roll in.
I think that was a joke (more)
– Last Updated: Sep-20-07 11:22 AM EST –
I'm not a fan of the "not everybody can roll" argument either but it's easy to fall into an "empowerment" trap by giving rolling "tips" when what is needed is the time and dedication of one-on-one instruction.
(I'm actually trying to discourage people from giving random rolling "tips", all of which Lou has probably heard repeatedly.)
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While the partially-paralyzed woman rolling is interesting, there no reason why she would necessarily be a "hard case". How long did it take her to roll?
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It's easy to encourage people but very hard to actually devote the necessary time to "hard cases".
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It certainly is not clear that Lou is one of those who can't roll but there is clearly some issue, which will be impossible to understand here.
The only reasonable advice, at this point, is say "get instruction". (A greenland approach would proably be the best.)
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Lou lives in an area (Queens, NY) where there are many relatively-convenient resources for very-capable rolling instruction. He has ground through 4 instructors already (some of who might even teach at Delmarva). I'd be hard pressed, given the kayaking community in this area, to second guess their teaching skills. (Note that Jay Babina is one member of the local kayaking community.)
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It's interesting to see people make wild guesses as to what rolls he's being taught, or what he hasn't tried, or the level of competance of instruction he's had. People do not have enough information to make such guesses.
Instructors
– Last Updated: Sep-20-07 11:42 AM EST –
Four instructors? I did not find instructors to be very helpful. You just need someone to give you the bow rescues. Keep working on a Pawlata and practice hip snaps with a float.
I should add -- as someone else mentioned -- your initial question makes it seem that you don't know the basics. Yes indeed you should be bending strenuously toward the surface during setup. How did four instructors fail to tell you that?
Instructors
– Last Updated: Sep-20-07 11:51 AM EST –
It's possible that he only needs some one with the skills to observe what he is doing. This might be the only "instruction" he needs.
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It's clear he has spent much time "hip snapping", etc. And it's clear that that isn't working for him.
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"How did four instructors fail to tell you that?"
They almost certainly did tell him that! Why are people assuming that the instructors are incompetent?
I’ve Learned A Lot From Trying
By trying to get a roll, I have:
- gotten much more comfortable hanging under water and wet exiting
- do not visualize paddling as a bone dry, in the boat experience.
- can bow rescue pretty well
- can do a re-enter and roll with a paddle float
If you are volunteering to be my first brain surgery patient, I’m willing to give it a shot (just kidding)
Lou
Night Hawk 16
I have not modified it at all. I do have to apply some pressure to maintain hip control. I have tried a few boats that seem to hold my legs with no effort: Mystic, Crossfire, Tempest 165
Lou
Instructor competence
Perhaps different instructors feel differently but if a student fails to get what I am teaching, it is my competence that is “at fault”, not the student – unless they are not paying attention or applying themself (and I would again blame myself for not making the material interesting enough to keep someone motivated). A good instructor must discover the key phrase, tip, or drill, to create that exciting “AHA”! moment in a student.
That said, as has been mentioned, we are all making gross assumptions about what Lou has been taught and about his attempted roll technique.
Greg Stamer
Good instructors
– Last Updated: Sep-20-07 4:23 PM EST –
I think, your biggest "problem" is that you are a good instructor!
Your attitude (and it is a good one) is actually -very- common in the instructors I've run across.
"Wild Guesses"
Not so wild, really. Not even guesses for the most part.
Many of us have been following Lou’s often detailed posts on his “progress” for 5 years now. We may not know instructor names, but we do know what rolls and methods he’s been trying along the way.
Also, it’s not like he’s never rolled at all. There have been a few, and it seems like he’s downhill since (which I think is a good thing if it leads him away from spotty methods to something reliable and easy). Time for an intervention?
People are not assuming…
… anything about these unknown instructors. We are just considering the lack of results (for whatever reason).
Why are you feeling a need to defend these unknown instructors? It seems unnecessary and is not helping the issue at hand.
Yes
– Last Updated: Sep-21-07 12:47 PM EST –
"Many of us have been following Lou's often detailed posts on his "progress" for 5 years now."
What about the many posters replying or reading who have no idea of the history here? Also, given the long history, it's not clear that the advice he's been given has done much to help. It's also not clear that the "detailed posts" accurately reflect what he is doing.
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I wasn't exactly directing my comments to those people "painfully familiar" with Lou's trials. (Masochists have a right to their pleasure too.)
If the responses were only being made by that group of people, I might not have said anything.
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There are people who made replies who had no idea how long this was going on. I think this information is pretty important.
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Anyway, it isn't clear whether any of the "many" people familiar with this situation have ever seen Lou's roll attempt (let alone seen his current attempts). So, one might be able to argue that replies from the "many people" aren't going to be much help).
The only thing people are able to do is make "wild guesses".
I think it may be doing a disservice to Lou to attempt to debug his roll without being able to observe what he is actually doing.
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"Time for an intervention?"
Yes.
Not true!
– Last Updated: Sep-21-07 5:59 PM EST –
A few people are indeed making large general assumptions about the instructors Lou has had.
--->> See fadedred's post especiallly. This post is especially full of baseless assumptions about the competence of instructors and what they are teaching him! There are problems with davejjj's post as well. (I really didn't want to call people out specifically but it looks like you didn't see those posts!)
Lou's characterization of the instructors as ACA instructors isn't too relevent for rolling because I don't think the ACA has a "rolling instructor" designation.
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"Why are you feeling a need to defend these unknown instructors?."
Because I probably know some of them and the ones I do know are quite dedicated and churn out lots of rollers! Keep in mind that the community some of these instructors are a part of includes people like Jay Babina and Greg Stamer!
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"It seems unnecessary and is not helping the issue at hand"
It's been five years! What exactly would help the "issue at hand"? If anything was really "helpful", we wouldn't be discussing this yet again!
Posting a video???
I’m definitely not a rolling expert but why don’t you post a video clip (YouTube or similar) of your roll so someone can correct you?
Good suggestion!
– Last Updated: Sep-21-07 2:02 PM EST –
Nice!
I was going to mention that but it seemed obvious!
It's amusing to see people provide advice without asking basic questions (like "what boat?" and "what paddle?"). These questions were asked but it took a long time for people to get around to them! Of course, Lou could have provided these details at the start.
Some knew
Several folks probably recalled that Lou’s boat is a Nighthawk 16 and he has a Euro paddle, tho’ he has obviously been working in other boats. Since the status hasn’t moved much and the boat isn’t out of keeping, I am not sure that the boat or even paddle should be the focus. It’s kinda grabbing at straws at this point for anyone who can’t get together with him.
A Good Idea
– Last Updated: Sep-21-07 3:19 PM EST –
I would need a digital camera and someone to use it. I may be able to do something about the camera (I think my new cell may record). If I encounter a willing soul, I will try this. I generally paddle and practice solo.
Oh, and I didn't give boat and paddle details in my original post because I was originally just trying to ask Jay a question about what I saw in his video. Of course, the thread took on a life of it's own, which is not bad or unusual.
I do paddle a NightHawk 16 with a mid Swift paddle. I keep the paddle unfeathered.
Lou
My point exactly
– Last Updated: Sep-21-07 6:02 PM EST –
"It's kinda grabbing at straws at this point for anyone who can't get together with him."
Exactly. (And these are 5 year old straws.)
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"I am not sure that the boat or even paddle should be the focus."
No one is necessarily "focusing" on these but these are basic and key pieces of information with respect to debugging a roll or suggesting alternatives. At the very least, it establishes that he is not using a completely inappropriate boat!
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"Several folks probably recalled"
What about the people new to this saga (like Jay)? It's those people that should be helped.