"Oh, and I didn't give boat and paddle details in my original post because I was originally just trying to ask Jay a question about what I saw in his video."
Recall -who- asked what boat and paddle you were using!
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"Of course, the thread took on a life of it's own, which is not bad or unusual."
This is one reason that talking "privately" to an instructor might be more helpful rather than posting to an open forum. (Note that Jay -is- an instructor whether or not he runs classes.)
Asking rolling questions openly is like chumming the ocean. You can't necessarily choose who bites.
fear of wet exit when i was learning and had an unreliable roll, i went straightaway to the rentry and roll. that way, i didn’t have to worry about coming out of the boat plus as my roll got better, and i rolled with skirt on, i had the rentry and roll to add to my skills collection. that said, the extended paddle roll is so easy (assuming an unfeather euro or GP and the boat padded out properly) that all this failure must mean something you can’t see. best to get someone who knows how to teach the standard greenland layback and work with that person perhaps even in a low volume roll friendly boat. once you get the idea, you’ll be amazed at how easy it is.
It’s a consideration I really would like to roll based on technique rather than gear. I’m thinkin’ about it though. I was able to roll with a pool noodle attached to my current blade.
If you started rolling with an extended GP you'd quickly develop a 100% reliable roll. The next step in the progression is a quick, non-extended roll. When the water's cold, every microsecond counts! Finally you'd wonder how well you'd do rolling with a storm paddle and you'd surprise yourself at how easy it is. Then when you went to use your old euro paddle you'd find that you didn't like it nearly as much as the GP.
Remember, with the GP you always always always know the angle of the blade because you always have a hand or two on the blade.
(Thanks again, Recluse and jsmarch, for introducing me to the GP)
You can always know the postion with … a Euro paddle as well. I would never knock using a GP, but my Euro with zero degree feather and clear indexing and bent shaft lets me know without question the position of the blade.
I thought it was the buoyancy? I thought the GP paddle was suggested because of it’s added buoyancy? Using an unfeathered paddle and an extended grip, it’s pretty easy to feel the orientation of the blade.
others will do a better job of describing the technical advantages. suffice it to say that with a gp orientation of the paddle is a non issue–front/back, l/r are = as the paddle is symetrical. grasp can be scaled along the paddle (varying extension) very easily, and it is easier to find the correct position as there is no correct position (except no cupping end) unlike with the extended euro. with a euro, you have to maintain a climbing angle or the paddle will dive–not an issue with gp as the blade shape isn’t as vulnerable to misalignment of leading edge. some of this is buoyancy, but probably also reflects tendency of airfoil shape to maintain orientation. paddle buoyancy does help you find the surface and helps to make sure that the paddle is in the proper orientation at the start of the sweep. basically it just floats there if you leave your hands relaxed. my overall impression (even accounting for using unfeathered euro) is that the extended paddle roll is easier with a gp than a euro. besides all this, lou, it is just an easier tool, especially as you get older and things hurt more. don’t think of getting a gp just for rolling, but because you’ll like it for all sorts of paddling. everything except towing in force 7 winds in tidal races and big surf is easier with a gp: rolling, bracing, paddling in wind, you name it its less stressful and more forgiving.
GP removes need to think/check I agree you can know where blades are on an EP too (or wing for that matter) - and even without any shaft indexing (by just moving it through the water a little - but this is easier once you have basics down).
With GP, the entire paddle is indexed, there is no left right, and no power/back face issue to distract. No matter where your hands are you know what’s going on. No need to check anything, or think about up/down/left/right*.
Anything that reduces the amount of thinking going on helps.
Thinking = Sinking.
Real bonus of the buoyancy isn’t in the extra lift so much as the way it makes the paddle very likely to self orient. Just loosen up and it automatically goes to the surface and lays flat. It knows what to do - and all you have to do is let it. A buoyant paddle also helps you always clearly feel which way is up.
All of this is small stuff. When your basic roll is working - it will work with EP, GP, wing, a 2x4, or a broom. You should also be able to do it just as easily with paddles upside down or backward.
It ain’t the paddle - but the GP sure does make it simpler.
I think one reason rolling might be easier with GP is that the paddle orients itself on the surface. A free-floating GP will lay with the blades flat; a feathered euro doesn't.
It's also easier to use an GP extended. Holding an GP extended isn't much different than holding it in the normal way. Holding a Euro extended is stranger.
Greyak is right: it's pretty easy to use a backwards/upside down Euro to roll (if you can roll). Rolling with certain other things (eg, 2x4) might be somewhat harder since these don't "climb".
Yes as above - orientation The GP tends to have less of a positioning issue because its bouyancy is such that it is fairly difficult for it NOT to lie the right way unless you really manhandle and force it. Plus the starting GP roll is done with an extended paddle.
That’s why blades with foam core also tend to be easier to get positioned - if you pretty much let go of a hard hold they will find the right orientation without a lot of help on your part.
The “first” GP roll is a back deck roll, a good thing if that’s the goal but something to keep in mind if not.
foam core blades help Did my first rolls with a foam core Werner Cyprus 210 cm. Used a demo for a whole day of my classes, thanks to the good people of Werner at the Ladies of the Lake symposium. Now own a new paddle of the same spec. Maybe it was a kind of talisman, or a reward :::shrug::: But I like it.
Compared w. my nonfoam Epic Active Tour Level Lock, the Cyprus does give a litte more boost in rolling. Altho the Epic is nice and light with a slightly bigger power face, the Werner floats to the surface and is easier to orient. The Epic has a much larger dihedral rib than the Werner, FWIW.
They are two great paddles. Neither one will be a detriment to skill development.
I respect the GP tradition and have seen some truly elegant paddlers.
For now, as a beginner, I have a high angle, active paddling style and no physical issues or horrendous flaws in form - so no reason to change what’s workin’. Including my paddles.
Paddle IMO is only about 10% of it anyway. The fit of the boat, the paddler’s flexibility, and the hipsnap are far greater determinants of being physically able to roll…in fact I blew my roll attempts a few times as far as paddle position and still came up on the strength of my hipsnap, fit, and keeping head down.
and then there is the mental side - to be ready to learn, be open to change, to follow a set pattern to create body memory, and to enjoy the process - expecting to succeed!
any buoyancy is minimal and won’t help if you are relying on the buoyancy to provide extra ‘lift’ or an extra ‘boost’ to help you roll.
Based on some of your questions I think you do not understand some of the basic and fundamental concepts of rolling. Usually this isn’t a big deal for people, except that you are trying to teach yourself AND trying to diagnose potential problems.
At this point find a highly recommended rolling instructor, even if it means paying quite a bit. On your way to the session repeat this phrase ‘I know nothing about rolling. I am open and willing to try whatever the instructor tells me’. Say it until you mean it and believe it. You have 5 years of misunderstanding, misinformation, and bad habits to overcome.
Please Read the Thread I mean not disrespect here, however, I have previously stated that:
I am not looking for gear to solve technical problems. This was suggested by others on this thread. That is why I questioned this line of thinking in my responses.
I have worked with 4 ACA instructors and a number of other knowledgeable people in quite a few classes.
In a class that I attended this summer, the instructor felt that I had all of the basic movements right, which I interpret as not a lot of bad habits going on.
I am certainly open to further training, however, I will be cautious about who I choose.
That being said over a 100 replies is hard to keep track of.
I learned to roll with a euro paddle and it came pretty slow. Recluse and jsmarch introduced me to the GP and I was absolutely amazed at how much lift it provided when extended. Not bouyancy lift. Leverage lift and hydrodynamic foil lift. (is that a real term? you know, like an airplane wing) It was so easy to scull with also. I just wish I had learned to roll with the GP so I could have progressed faster. Think of the extended GP as elementary school, the non-extended GP as middle school, and rolling with the storm paddle as high school.
Yeah, the GP might be construed as a 'thing' fix as opposed to a 'technique' fix but I think your technique will improve faster with the right thing. Mine did.
Yes, 100+ replies is a lot. IMO the things they probably didn't teach you well in class that have a lot of value are:
1) Twist the boat up with your thigh. Think "knee up!" instead of "hip snap!"
2) Look up toward the sky... reread what jsmarch wrote. You don't actually have to keep your eyes open.
3) The goal isn't to get your body 90 degrees to the boat. The goal is to get your head way up near the surface. You can twist the boat up nicely with your head high and near the boat.
Two kinds of training here: Mental and physical. You may need to regroup and re-balance these.
Mentally, what I’m hearing from you is overload. Essentially, you “know” too much (and know it in theory, not practice, which really complicates things unnecessarily). This is preventing you from being able to just feel what’s going on and learn the roll physically - by adjusting on the fly in response to what you are feeling.
This the main reason you are consistently being told to stick to one method, not improvise, to take any advantage available to simplify and ease the process, etc.
Rolling is not a high level academic pursuit, and no amount of mental understanding will make it work. Knowledge helps - and watching others helps - but only up to a point. It all gets counterproductive beyond that, and odds are you are way beyond that. Mental overload increases pressure and frustration, when thing could instead be simple and fun. Your sporadic limited successes should be positive events - but it sounds more like they only add to your frustration.
“Can’t see the forest for the trees” applies in spades! You can’t find the roll amid all the techniques and elements. You think you “know”, but knowing isn’t the answer.
Another appropriate phrase that comes to mind is: “analysis paralysis”
Your mind needs to stop trying to “figure it out”. It can’t - as this is unfamiliar territory. Experimentation/feedback stuff, not linear problem solving.
You may “understand” all the elements, and even be doing each part right - but that’s not what matters most. It’s all one simple move. Once you get it together, you can do some the various elements rather poorly and still roll up OK. There is also a pretty wide margin of error once it clicks, so they don’t have to be perfect to work.
Learning to roll is very hard for perfectionists. A looser “whatever works” approach makes life easier. Once you know you are coming reliably up you can re-visit all the videos and techniques and clean it up (they are quite different to watch before/after).
Think of a small boy learning to somersault (MUCH harder than rolling BTW!). Would detailed analysis and understanding of the various elements of a somersault through books/videos/on-line discussions help? Maybe, but more likely they’d confuse and even intimidate the kid. More importantly in this case: Time in the library is time off the mat. Would just messing about on the floor be a valid approach? Yes, and “playing” is sufficient and appropriate for most kids. Would a gymnastics coach help? Quite likely, as coach would be a shortcut - and good ones achieve this by directing the kid’s play to actions that are more productive/rewarding and less frustrating (do any of your past rolling teachers fit this description - or did they add to your frustration?).
Important thing here is taking a playful approach. It allows you to relate more openly/directly/productively to events along the way (things you you may wrongly be calling “failures” now). If that young boy has a dozen books and videos - and doesn’t manage a somersault right off - he is likely to go back to those books and videos to see what he did “wrong”. This can become a cycle - involving different books, different videos, different sources of advice - many conflicting or seeming so (as the focus is increasingly on small details out of context). Someone without all that mental baggage will shrug a flubbed attempt off and simply see each attempt for what it is, another chance to learn and adjust. Then they try again a bit differently on the next go - learning DIRECTLY from the physical input from each try. This is easy to do if you are comparing what happened and what you felt compared to the last attempt - but quite hard to do if you are instead comparing what happened to a whole bunch of abstract concepts in your head.
You need to attend to the cause and effect of what is actually happening - and NOT what you think is supposed to happen from your interpretations of info in some book or video (no matter how good and well recommended it may be). A good coach can help you do the same thing faster and with better result.
All the above in 6 words: Play body games, not head games.
