"Another appropriate phrase that comes to mind is: "analysis paralysis""
Yes.
It is easy to over-analyse the components for a roll. Rolls happen so quickly that it hard to break them down into component moves. Often, people who think too much about it have a harder time learning.
The big problem with posting "help my roll" questions on a forum is that it encourages the "analysis paralysis"! Certainly, any advice about technique you get from people who have never seen you try to roll is highly suspect!
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About the only useful advice would be to get instruction/coaching with a Greenland approach (especially if you have been taught by WW paddlers.)
To add to the irony… … (and show that you are not as immune to it as you like to make it seem in your posts about the wisdom of not posting roll advice) - a “Greenland approach” does not normally teach that “rolls happen so quickly”.
The most common G-Style advice is to slow down! L
Your advice to seek out this sort of instruction is good, and I agree, but it has also been suggested to Lou regularly for several years now.
All the other posted suggestions and comments do serve a purpose too (several actually) - just maybe not your purposes (and maybe not Lou’s either - but that doesn’t mean others can’t benefit). I followed similar threads while learning (on my own) and found them very helpful. I continue to find little gems in them. Even so, I am still keenly aware that the day I got it was the day I stopped thinking my way through it and felt my way through instead.
"... (and show that you are not as immune to it as you like to make it seem in your posts about the wisdom of not posting roll advice)"
You are smarter than that!
There is no irony at all. Indeed, all I am suggesting is to seek out an instructor/guide/mentor that uses a Greenland approach. It's a general suggestion. I made no comments about details of technique.
The PROBLEM is all the SPECIFIC advice that people are providing knowing Lou's difficulty with rolling and not being able to see what he is actually doing!
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" - a "Greenland approach" does not normally teach that "rolls happen so quickly"
That's another well-known advantage of a Greenland approach (especially using an extended paddle). That's one reason others as well as I suggested it. Still, even a Greenland roll might happen too fast for in-depth analysis.
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"just maybe not your purposes (and maybe not Lou's either - but that doesn't mean others can't benefit)"
Weird conspiracy theories. I have no "purpose". I do think it doesn't serve Lou at all. While it's possible that other people might benefit, I suspect that one would have to know a fair amount about rolling to get anything out of the random suggestions. The suggestions will also likely confuse a lot of people. Keep in mind that the "advice" is being offered specifically to Lou. I see Lou's situation as more important than the vague value provided to "others". It's also odd that you don't see the value to "others" of pointing-out the problems with debugging rolls that you can't see!
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"Even so, I am still keenly aware that the day I got it was the day I stopped thinking my way through it and felt my way through instead."
Your post mentioning this was smart. This is a classic key to getting a roll.
I Think Your Suggestions Are Right On I agree that the correction lies somewhere in the setting up for the sweep, and the sweeping out of the trunk to the 90 degree position. Last weekend was a “bust” for me paddling-wise. I hope to work on this next weekend.
The Problem With Bulletin Boards… is that all you see is the dialogue and analysis. I do fish around for the “what works” while in the water. Unfortunately, during the week, I’m behind a desk.
“behind a desk” exercises While trying to get my roll I used to sit in my office chair and tuck into set-up, then go back and forth from setup to finish positions (a yardstick, broom handle, or other “paddle” to hold are optional accessories).
Helps you see how simple and uncomplicated the body motion actually is (and this part is the same with or without the capsize/righting actions going on around you), and builds on muscle memory a little.
You don’t need to do everything wet, or with full 360 rotation. When back on water, just add the capsize and torso/knee drive to right yourself.
Fortunately… … I’m behind a partition so they were largely spared the show (which really is pretty boring anyway as it just looks like I am bending over to pick something up and then stretching and leaning back).
Besides, everyone else in that room works for me (and already know I’m nuts). No other paddlers, but being product designers there was some side interest in the gear on the days my QCC and Carbon GP showed up.
I Like This Idea Greyak! I do have a glass front office, and I don’t think my staff considers me as nuts yet, but what the heck. I suspect that they think the judo is more nuts than the kayaking.
I Do a Similar Thing There’s a stairwell I use frequently. When no one else is around I’ll climb the steps and ‘roll my kayak’ at the same time. Lots of thigh twist and head tilting going on. I guess it helps.
If you don’t hear from me for a while you’ll know someone spied me in the stairwell and had me committed.
Probably said this before… …but (on another of my tangential side notes) you might switch to Aikido, or at least consider the mental aspects.
Rolling is more about harmony and balance than striking or grappling (at least the G-Style stuff - a lot of c-to-c instruction seems more combative). You use the water, working with it - not against it. Some of the circle/triangle/square (common Zen imagery) also serve to explain various roll aspects quite well in VERY simple conceptual terms.
A sweep roll is all of these forms (energy states) flowing into each other: square -triangle - circle - triangle - square
AKA: upright and stable - into setup - capsizing/twisting hull over/sweeping - into finish - upright and stable.
AKA: Kayak provides support - transitional/shared support - water provides support - transitional/shared support - kayak provides support.
Circle/midpoint/water support portion is key (though none are really “separate” - and this is descriptive only). You simply can’t fight water, but you can join forces with it.
Rolling & Judo I think that rolling and Judo have a lot in common. First, let me dis-spell the myth about Judo and striking. Although hollywood has shown otherwise, striking has always been illegal in Judo. Here are the similarities:
Judo is about technique & not strength. Although you can muscle a technique, it is counter to the design of the sport, and leaves you with less energy to continue playing.
Women are particularly well suited for Judo, as they have a low center of gravity, and tend to be less dependant upon strength
The perfect execution of a Judo technique feels effortless
If you are pinned in grappling, the objective is to use leveraging techniques to roll so that you are on top.
Each Judo technique is comprised of several physical movements that are practiced in drills in pieces and assembled into one fluid motion.
Done properly, Judo is done by feel, not by watching or analyzing what you are doing. In a recent Olympics, the US team had a player who was blind.
Didn’t mean do mis-characterize Judo… … just to point out that any competitive element (and Judo seems a fairly competitively oriented art to me) can ultimately be counterproductive in learning rolling (even though all the physical elements are indeed similar and can give you added perspective/tools).
If you apply a competition/combat mentality to rolling it puts you at odds with the water. The water is infinitely stronger and can easily do most of the work if you let it - or defeat your best effort is you don’t. Either way, it will always win. Wise to ally your efforts with it. Futile to fight it.
But who bothers to think about the water as the most important element of the rolling process? There’s really no thinking needed - as it’s simply water. But then a roll is simply a roll to…
The relationship one has with the water is what determines how easy or hard, and how fast/slow, it is to learn to roll. Anyone with “water issues” is disadvantaged by their negative feelings (fears) and automatically sets themselves up for failure (or at least a very long hard path) by adopting an adversarial position toward the water. On the flip side, people who are (or learn to be) relatively comfortable in the water (respect, not fear) have an easier time as they expend no energy on these pointless struggles (mental or physical), and only have to do a very simple physical task (while receiving a great deal of help from the water itself).
So Lou, are you sick enough of reading this drivel yet to simply go out and get rolling so you won’t have to read any more?
the analysts see learning blocks as a function of either drive (sex) conflicts or failure to resolve an attachment issue. like most of what they believe they are wrong about this, but undeterred by the scientific evidence. i used to think this stuff was entertaining, but it does get in the way of real understanding and learning and in that sense we'd all be better off w/o it. oh, and this post isn't because i've got unresolved conflicts--smile.
