Years ago (timing varies), somewhere in the bowels of state capitols across the country, a poor intern from the big city (who had never been in a boat and could barely swim) was working in a dimly lit closet when The Boss Bureaucrat said:
“Our state boat launches are not accessible, and we need to get them ADA compliant before The Feds come after us. Go find the cheapest damn thing we can buy that meets ADA rules and get me pricing!”
And the rest is history.
And no judge will convict.
And somewhere in the small print of state regs it says “Use Facilities at Own Risk”.
Ah, but there is such a thing as “ Gross Negligence.” This is Gross and it is Negligence. Class Action Suit against everybody.
You don’t have to use it. Well, unless it’s blocking all other possible launch options, which is sometimes the case.
With the one in the pictures that people are arguing about, you could drop your boat over the side of the dock, the outer side of the ADA launch part, off the end of the dock,……
In some cases there are rails all the way around as in the OP so you can not use the dock and have to look elsewhere which is an horrendous waste of money, in other cases like a post in this very “thread” a guy was forced to use it because the current made the roller ramp his only take out and he gouged up a pretty expensive boat. That has got to be aggravating.
But that is not the main issue, again, as in this very thread, someone who did not know any better and these roller launches looking so enticing and convenient go ahead and use it for the first time and crack a really expensive brand new composite boat. That is not right. Something has to be done about it, like yesterday.
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mjac
I did see those railing sections in the first photo. It seems like the owner (park? City? Other?) could be approached with an explanation of the issue, and a request to remove one or two sections of the railing. This would make it useable for everyone. Without threats and lawsuits.
The dock in question is also (mostly) used as a fishing dock for adults and kids and with all of the safety requirements and codes, local , state, federal, Martian, I assume the rails are necessary because of legal liability. I just wish they were that careful designing a launch ramp that does not destroy boats. Very aggravating.
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mjac
There’s one of those plastic pull ‘n’ drag-type launches at Lake Massabesic in Auburn, NH. Since the lake is a public water supply for Manchester, NH, the town doesn’t want paddlers wading into the water. Way too much trouble to bring a kayak down a narrow, T-shaped loading dock with one of those contraptions at the end. I just wear my Neoprene paddling boots, so I can avoid using the less than handy kayak launch. Launching at the shore is the easier option! There are park rangers that enforce the ‘rubber boot’ rule, so I just tell everyone in my paddling group to wear rubber boots.
I only use my fiberglass Necky Chatham 17 on the ocean. When I paddle fresh water, I bring my smaller Valley Avocet, Perception Elipse 14.5 or my Necky Manitou 14. The plastic boats can withstand almost anything.
If the government spends mucho dollars to build boat launches fo paddle craft, shouldn’t it be able to launch ant variety of paddle craft WITHOUT destroying it? I think it is time we demanded accountability from government in this and many other areas, this is just one example of gross negligence by them.
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mjac
Not sure “the” government is really at fault. Various municipalities across the country have bought into this form of ADA accessible kayak launches. I don’t think the federal government has mandated that this particular design be used everywhere. There is (and should be) a push to make things accessible to everyone. And there are grant opportunities to make it possible. I think the problem is that in a lot of cases the people making the decisions are not the people with the most knowledge and experience.
We have a new one where I live. I put my boat in next to it, to avoid the rollers, but it’s inconvenient because there isn’t much space between the dock and some large sharp rocks. Apparently they plan more improvements - it just isn’t complete yet. My friend and I discussed everything we were dissatisfied with - then he talked to the guy who led up the project, and it turns out all our concerns were already being addressed. The project was done by the township, with grant money from a local health foundation, combined with village recreational millage funds.
Uhm, “municipalities “ are a form of “government” and they spend taxpayer dollars. If you spend taxpayer dollars, you have an obligation to see to it they are spent in a productive, efficient manner that serves people’s needs. These “launches” do not fit that definition. Roller launches damage/destroy boats, a launch is supposed to launch, not destroy, that is ridiculous and it has been going on for a good 15 YEARS. You might be satisfied with that level of performance using taxpayer money, but this man is not. You want to run a government agency and be a big shot, then you better know what you are doing, if not you should be held accountable. It is past time, this man is fed up.
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mjac
Please reread what I said, and how I said it. I never said municipalities weren’t government entities. I said that “THE” government (meaning the federal government) didn’t demand this type of launch be used.
Later I said that our local launch of this type was paid for with funds from the village recreation millage (voted on by the people) and a grant from a local health foundation. Both of which sound like reasonable use of the funds, as intended.
You are being illogical. A government agency of some type made the decision to build roller launches that are damaging/destroying boats. Somebody did not know what they were doing. Then you add the fact these launches have been damaging/ destroying boats for over 15 YEARS and is a known fact, is unacceptable incompetence. Your second paragraph proves my point, they did this incompetence using public money. Why are you making excuses for these clowns? Me, sitting her right now without the support of any agency or consultants, off the top of my head, could show you how to inexpensively retro-fit these roller launches so they would not damage boats, why can’t they do it with all of their brouhaha?
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mjac
You’ve been making a lot of noise and making threats about this issue. What have you done constructively to address the problem?
Our Club has persuaded jurisdictions in Maryland to rethink cartop boat launches. It wasn’t that difficult. Even the manufacturer was unaware of this problem until told as they had been making ramps for jet skis and small power boats which are a lot less fragile.
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I resent the characterization. I am not making noise and I have never made a threat in my life, it is against my character. I am expressing myself, if you have a problem with someone sincerely expressing themselves and relieving a great deal of justified frustration then you should revisit the concept of free expression. It is detailed quite clearly in our founding documents and I intend to exercise it despite your consternations.
Fair question, what have I done. I have a concept that can easily and inexpensively retrofit any roller launch to where it will not damage boats. Two, Class Action Lawsuit against manufacturers and government agencies for Gross Negligence.
I have no idea what you mean by “ car top boat launches.” Boat launches for paddle craft are boat launches for paddle craft. If that is your term for that then why are these roller type launches still being installed and the existing ones not being retrofitted so they do not damage boats?
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mjac
I know that one well because I fish that side of the lake at least a few times a year. I launch from the side of the dock since it has no railings.
A couple pictures of the one near me, with my canoe next to it. I can go around it, and don’t have to use it. It’s in my way, but not terribly so. We just need the people designing the docks to arrange things in such a way that everyone can use it, or choose not to. The roller things are probably absolutely fine for the rotomolded kayaks, which is 95% of what seems to be around. Perhaps a sign posted to avoid it if you are using something else?
It isn’t finished yet, so I’m hoping the log to the left of my boat goes away, and that they do something with the rocks, etc. Everything we didn’t like about it was going to change (except the rollers, of course), so we shall see. I know who to talk to if they decide to install railings all around.
Look how stately, engineered, expensive, designed, attractive, impressive and enticing that is…and you can’t launch your boat from it.
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mjac
Well jmac I think your frustration is understandable. I think it’s good that you have motivation to try to improve things.
After thinking about it I agree with willowleaf and Buffalo_Alice that trying to take legal action is probably a terrible idea. Most likely you’d spend money to find out that everyone is clean legally, although it looks like gross negligence to you and me. I think it is at least gross silliness. I still think you might want to write a short summary with pictures and send it to local news agencies. I think you just want to “shine a light” on the issue to broaden awareness of the silliness. I think (at least for me) the hardest part is being calm and polite when you communicate your concerns because that’s the only way to be effective (if you are angry it just gives folks another excuse to ignore you).
Maybe one of us should write to ADA and just ask why they don’t use simpler, less expensive designs that work for everyone and don’t damage boats; I envision just a plastic version of the wooden one in my pic.
According to the data I’ve seen the majority of kayakers paddle infrequently (like 2-3 times/year) and there are lots of first-time kayakers and lots of kayaks made the same way as yours so it isn’t at all surprising that boats get damaged and people are surprised and frustrated. I’m glad you want to do something about it.
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I will try and take this one point at a time so there are no broad generalizations that are not substantiated or warranted trying to be melodramatic. At the same time trying to be civil, which I have been accused of not being. ( Falsely I feel, but that is up for debate)
I respectively disagree, gross negligence of this degree and most importantly for this length of time after the problem was well known and documented ( going on two decades now) is certainly actionable against at least the manufacturers and dealers if not the government agencies that approved it. Walmart just lost a 45 million dollar Class Action Lawsuit for packaging produce and meats wrong.
I think this should be looked at from all fronts, legal, public relations, at the club level, paddling organizations (where are you ACA?) and the media.
No, I am not interested in just “ shining a light” in order to perhaps get attention for myself. I would prefer if I am not even mentioned. All I am interested in is results. In your opinion, do you think I got carried away?
Third paragraph: All Fronts.
Your last paragraph: All the more reason to do something about this. I never understood why, but the Pandemic drew people to the outdoors and their were an enormous amount of first time paddle craft buyers, manufacturers could not keep up, I know one, who have no idea what a roller launch will do to their boat, some of them thousands of dollar composites as the one mentioned in this very “ thread.”
You may say, why is this guy going off on this one issue, something he just plucked up to make noise about? I wrote this upstream and got no response. I watched these bureaucratic clowns destroy 40 thousand acres of Virgin Old Growth Cypress Marsh Forest with their stupidity…you understand?
Trying to be civil.
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mjac
I most certainly could, if I wanted to. I wouldn’t hesitate with the rotomolded Pungo. And I have other launch options with this one. Just pointing out they don’t all have to exclude the option of NOT using the rollers.