Rolling a high volume kayak

-- Last Updated: Mar-20-16 12:56 PM EST --

I've had a near "bomb-proof" roll in my own boat, which is a low volume Valley. This past weekend, I was helping out in a pool session and didn't bring my own boat. I jumped in to "demonstrate" how a roll works, using a boat that's much higher volume than my own. The cockpit size was ok, a little on the big side, but I had good knee purchase.

I expected it would go a little slower and I might have to work harder to bring it up. I even planed on the eventuality that I might have to do an extended paddle roll just to bring it up.

You can probably guessed by now, I failed to bring it up at all at first!

The problem seems I couldn't get my paddle perpendicular because the depth of the kayak was such I had trouble clearing the bottom of the boat. Every time I started sweeping, the paddle dives. At first, I couldn't figure out what was causing the paddle dive...

After several failed attempts, someone suggest I "go back to basic" and tried a plain C-to-C (I normally do a "modified C2C" with a sweep component at the start). That's when I noticed I had a hard time getting my paddle high enough to clear the bottom of the kayak when setting up on the "first C"! No wonder the other end of my paddle dives when I sweep.

Switching to a "flatter" (but wider) boat made it even more clear that being the problem. This time, as soon as the boat starts rotating (half way through the sweep), the WIDTH of the kayak starts to interfere with the "air" end of the paddle and start to force it up (and the "water end" of the paddle to dive)...

While I can side step the problem and roll the big boat with a C2C because I have a rather powerful hip snap, not everyone (my poor proteges) have the same physique. I often hear instructors tell student not to pull on the paddle. But it seems that's not always the student pulling on the paddle. But rather, the paddle just dives due to geometry!

What other hints and suggestions on dealing with the problem of keeping the upper body (& the paddle) high in the sweep phase of a roll?

Timing off

– Last Updated: Mar-20-16 6:20 PM EST –

You expect to be higher up when the paddle is halfway thru its sweep (I bet), so you lift your head as though you were where you expect to be and the paddle dives in response to that.

Slower roll, maybe even get halfway up in a scull then stop, stabilize and finish nailing your BACK to the back deck. And get your torso up near the surface before you start to reduce that amount of travel.

Might be a very different motion than your usual C2C, but a properly patient sweep roll can make up for the other issues of moving a quite large boat. Which are many even if you have decent purchase.

By the way, is your regular Valley boat a Nordlow? If it is that is practically cheating - rolling in that boat.

Clearing the hull
To clear the hull on a deeper kayak, make sure that when you tuck, that you push the paddle down low and into the water. When you capsize that will translate into a blade that is now high, relative to the hull and you should better clear the hull with the non-working blade during your sweep.



It’s easy to be thrown when you try a kayak that is very different than what you are used to. Often its just a matter of making a few adjustments. If all else fails going to an extended paddle roll is usually enough to get me through.



Greg Stamer

good idea
"To clear the hull on a deeper kayak, make sure that when you tuck, that you push the paddle down low and into the water. "



That’s a good suggestion. I’ll try that in different variation again.



I noticed in practice that I came up faster when I capsize on the setup side. I realized now it’s because I push DOWN to get the big boat to go over. That helps to keep my paddle HIGH once the boat roll over.



But I need to find other cues to start the sweep HIGH in all form of capsize.

boat
"By the way, is your regular Valley boat a Nordlow? If it is that is practically cheating - rolling in that boat."



No, Avocet (regular).


Tuck Position

– Last Updated: Mar-20-16 11:13 PM EST –

>But I need to find other cues to start the sweep HIGH in all form of capsize.

In addition to pressing the paddle down into the water at the tuck, you also should "kiss the deck" by pulling your torso close to the deck using your abs. It takes some effort to do this. What this translates to when you capsize and start your sweep is that your head is only inches below the surface, and combined with a paddle blade that is also near the surface, allows a good sweep. During a good sweep your head should only be inches under the water, and your head stays close to the surface (BUT NOT ABOVE) until after you apply your hipsnap. All too often kayakers allow their head/torso to hang into the water in a "pile driver" position, and with the crown of their head pointing at the sea bottom. Not only is this dangerous for your head and neck (should you strike the bottom) but puts your body in a very poor position to execute a sweep and the paddle path often suffers and the blade often dives.

It only makes sense that you roll easier when you capsize on the setup side and come up on the opposite side as you have the momentum of the capsize helping your roll. I've competed in several Greenland Championships (in Greenland) and for the advanced rolls you will often see competitors position their kayak so that they capsize with momentum of the wind (away from the wind). This not only gives them added momentum, but the wind helps right the kayak, rather than pushing it back under, on the recovery.

Having said all this, don't try to roll too fast. Take your time as it takes awhile for your body and the kayak to get into the proper position, during the sweep. Going fast is rarely necessary (unless you are getting pounded on rocks).

Whenever I capsize in an unusual position, I take the time to position the paddle and my body underwater, into my "standard" tuck position. Once in that familiar position, the roll has a much better chance of success. If your paddle is diving I'd bet that you are rushing the roll, or are otherwise not getting into a strong tuck, where you are really using your abs to crunch and get your torso and head close to the surface (head close to the deck of the kayak), to start the roll correctly.

No matter how good your roll, if you have an instructor watch you they can probably offer some tips to get you over this hump and save you lots of time.

Greg Stamer

Though…
Good chance it is still an easier hull even if sized right than what you were trying in the pool. Very round.

observation from standard Greenland roll
Your post reminds me of the extended grip of the standard Greenland roll. No way the off side blade will get interference from the hull with that grip. And the technique of the SGR (laying back into the water with your head, upper back and torso) also avoids moving the paddle over the hull.



just a thought.

IF
you are doing a sweep C 2 C with a Euro paddle in non-extended style



Change the way you think about the roll…think about the dry side of the blade scraping the bottom of the boat as you roll



It will force you to actually curl around the kayak without thinking about it…you will automatically be properly orienting the paddle.



Best Wishes

Roy

Thank for yet another good suggestion.
"Change the way you think about the roll…think about the dry side of the blade scraping the bottom of the boat as you roll



It will force you to actually curl around the kayak without thinking about it…you will automatically be properly orienting the paddle. "



That’s a good one.



I’ve been looking for a mental cue on that one. This would really help.

funny thing is…
…that’s how I got out of my jam Saturday!



I gave up on the euro paddle and grabbed my GP. I just used the natural flotation of the GP to guide my upper body up towards the surface. I could somehow feel my body was in the good position for a strong hip snap, went for it and was up.


Good thread
.

“rolling fast”
“Going fast is rarely necessary (unless you are getting pounded on rocks)”



Unfortunately, a lot of my paddle are in rocky rivers. So it’s not atypical that being the situation when I actually need my roll.







“It only makes sense that you roll easier when you capsize on the setup side and come up on the opposite side as you have the momentum of the capsize helping your roll.”



I doubt it. In pool practices, I usually wait a couple second for the boat to settle down.



Someone made a comment about my PFD look rather big on me. That it may get in the way of my body position. It’s the first I’ve heard that comment. I will pay a bit more attention to that aspect next time I’m in the pool (I honestly don’t feel the bulk)