Some boats are just easier to roll than others. It has to do with hull design, volume, height of front and back deck, among other things. In my opinion, the Solstice is harder to roll than other sea kayaks. The front and back deck are fairly high, and it's just a big boat. The NDK Romany practically rolls itself, and so do many of the SOF kayaks. The Dagger Meridian is also an easy boat to roll, along with the CD Siroco and Gulfstream. If possible, why not learn to roll in a user friendly boat. Once you lean to roll well in one of these, the skill can be transferred to most other boats. I also found that the easy rolling boats are also more playful, more maneuverable, and just more fun to paddle.
Length is fairly unimportant - personally I'd say absolutely irrelevant to how easy a roll is. If you are thinking that length matters you need to disabuse yourself of that notion before get into the pool.
Hull shape, the quality of contact fit and overall volume is more what you will feel.
I started learning to roll in a Squall, which is a the smallest boat in the Solstice series. I have paddled a GT, or maybe it was GTS, and I'd call what I paddled harder to roll than the Squall. The Squall was harder to roll than my Explorer LV and my percent of success jumped 200% in the first session with the Explorer. BTW, the Explorer is a foot or so longer - but it has a much easier hull design for rolling. I haven't tried the Cape boat but I'm not surprised by the negative comments I see above. You are probably right on choosing the Solstice between the two.
Seriously, are there some super easy boats to roll that you could rent for the first session or so? I am thinking of something like an old school WW boat (NOT the early playboats that can be tough to roll). In addition to the pain of hauling the Solstice into the pool, you might be better off starting out with a boat that throws you a ton of favors.
The nice, and very gratifying, thing about a boat that makes it real easy is that you can screw up the technique and still get up sometimes. This helps your attitude when learning. I've seen a number of people go into this with a boat that was more difficult and give up, guys as well as women. The Solstice series is fairly picky about your technique in my experience, especially the last half of the roll.
rolling Hi all thanks for the input … I have never rolled a kayak b4,(2nd yr novice)and figure i will 1 day , whether planned on or not, So i was trying to form a mental idea of what to expect from a Solstice ,wether it would be fairly easy or hard. I’m not sure if a forward lean and roll & recover would be easist or a rearward lean roll & recover would work best. Technique will have to be worked out, just apprehensive about how the boat itself wil behave, this was the basis for my posting. I recently bought a book titled " rolling a kayak " by Ken Whiting in hopes it will help me out.
Are you trying to get a roll entirely by yourself? There are annoying types that get the thing in 20 minutes or are just so well disciplined that they can start out with something like the Solstice, but they are not the majority. I doubt they are nearly half of the population of paddlers.
In sum, it can be done but maybe not as easily as you'd like and maybe over a time frame that you'll find discouraging.
What are your options for pool sessions during the winter or some other form of help around you? I am not necessarily saying it has to be formal lessons, but maybe a club or some other paddler that has a roll and a good eye.
There is also a safety issue. This is a skill best started out with a spotter, at least at first.
I agree that most probably folks can't do it. I think taking lessons is a good way to start. But, how would you know he isn't one that can pick it on his own? He probably knows better what his ability/adaptability is to pick things up.
In retrospect, I am seriously glad I didn't know any kayakers when I went off to learn rolling on my own. No naysayers to negatively influence me by saying how my kayak was too big, or how dangerous or hard it would be to do so alone. Otherwise, I would have had to wait to buy a "rolling boat", find lessons and hope these fit around my (back then) hectic schedule.
sing
PS. There are more abundant and higher quality reading and visual rolling materials to learn from than Ken Whiting. But then again, I learned using primarily DH's old book, "Eskimo Roll." Read and/or watch extensively before going out.
... I'm sure the paid instructors appreciate your comments - and I agree it can be a huge shortcut to use a good one and well worth the $ - but If I can teach myself in a few short far apart sessions, as an overweight office worker weekend warrior type, with poor flexibility and minimal outfitting...
It's NOWHERE near as hard as folks seem to want to make it out to be. Thinking otherwise only becomes self-fulfilling prophesy.
I learned mostly from "The Kayak Roll" - but Jay Babina's "1st Roll" is easier for working solo. EJ's great too if you have a spotter (need not be paddler/roller). The more the better for me as the magic is in where they overlap - not in the details of the differences (but multiple approaches might confuse the less holistic/more dogmatic minded in the beginning).
If you want to point to some advantage I may have had as a self taught roller - it sure as hell wasn't any special ability. More likely the year 'round warm water! No pool needed - and we also have inshore Bull sharks for motivation (anti-swim incentive)...
is something that can be diffictult to learn, but easy to do once you do learn. Many people can learn in 1.5 lessons, so it can be worth the money. An easy boat to learn in is the Jackson Fun, a whitewater boat. Like other things, once you've mastered the easy boat, it can be good to move on to one that's considered more difficult.
rolling hi … i will probably try at least a partial roll by myself at 1st in shallow water …i have a friend who also kayaks and wants to learn to roll , so we will probably get together at some point in time and practice & spot one another …thers also a possiblity of a 3rd person to help…Pool practice is out around here, closest pro training is a hour and 1/2 away. At worst. lessons are 2.5 hrs away @ another shop. I’m not sure how they train, whether they have access to a pool or not.
A Rotatioanally Challanged Point of View I may just have the dubious distinction of being the person on this board who has been trying to learn to roll longest. I had the pleasure of taking a class with Turner & Cheri a few weeks ago, which was fabulous. They squeezed me into a skinny, low decked boat, and packed me in (with foam) so well that I felt like my legs got replaced by a boat. There was no seat back at all. Laying on the back deck was easy. In fact, controlling the boat in any way was easy. To me this would be the ideal kind of boat situation for rolling, although, God help me if I had to wet exit:)
The person who got me up finally was a friend, not a paid instructor, though it is likely that the work of the instructors did contribute to the moment.
I disagree with where thinking has gone about "rolling boats". The thing that I most appreciate about Alison Sigethy is that she shows up for Greenland sessions in a plastic Tempest, and has been able to replicate all but a couple of the greenland rolls in that boat. I've spoken to more than one person who has walked away from other greenland classes convinced that they can only do that stuff in a teeny SOF.
That said, there are boats that make learning harder because they are so darned picky that they won't allow mistakes or are just very very hard to get up due to hull design or fit. The sheer process of trying to get the boat moving up distracts attention from the basic moves. That doesn't help learning the skill. Among the posters here, only a few have been in these boats to try and roll them and no one is saying they were really helpful.
There is another possibility that no one has mentioned in the rush. That would be to pick up an old school WW boat, or even a newer one like the RPM, that can be gotten dirt cheap and would be easier boats to start out in. The profile says he lives in upstate NY. Sitting Albany, I can guarantee you that he can pick up one of these boats for a couple of hundred bucks if he is willing to drive at most a couple of hours. And he'd have a good boat for wandering up creeks when all was done.
Hi Eel With the OC, IME there’s no need to use any outfitting at all for general paddling, and I’ve got pretty skinny legs. With the Black Pearl, I paddle knees flat/legs straight. While I can go hours in this position no problem, it’s nice to have some room to move around and still feel in contact with the kayak. The OC OI provides this for me with a 1" foam quasi-masik. For rolling in both kayaks, I’ve made a foam flat/level masik that I can pull up over my thighs and that completely locks me into the kayak. On the OI, this is about 2 1/2" thick. Am thinking, however, about gluing a center block plus a bit of foam to drop the foredeck 1/2", e.g. the W version. Did this with a Mark Rogers Artic Hawk, and liked it a lot, and as you say have seen it done this way by quite a few folks who paddle an Anas. Have also rolled Mark Molina’s Valkyrie–he ended up with the W format too. Freya uses the flat foam in Sexy Hexy, and Cheri uses the W in her Aral but flat in her rolling kayaks. Have paddled both ways and to tell the truth its my skills or lack of same that are driving the rolls more than the form of the masik. What’s your preference?
On another note, I’ve always appreciated your posts. Where do you live-be great to paddle together someday?
I just looked at the profile against the distances you mention - I'm having a hard time figuring out where you are in upstate NY that puts you that far away from resources like a local paddling club or group at the least. Are you in WW country and not thinking of using them for help? Or are you way out west or deep into the southern tier in the state?
We are in the capital district area. Based on our own experience, it isn't at all tough in upstate to pick up used old school WW boats for dirt cheap, no more than $200 and down to less, which would be perfect for you to start out in. (And much easier to haul to the pond.) At worst you might have to make one longer drive, depending on where you are, but you'd have a good boat for creek crawling when the rolling work was done.
To help with any boat suggestions, how tall are you and how much do you weigh? These boats tend to be more tuned to size than long boats, which is one reason they can be great to start a roll in.
A different angle is that no modern manufacturer is going to market a hull that is markedly difficult to roll.
My old '82 Noah is certainly more difficult to roll than any other kayak I have owned. It is in its MOST stable position when upside down, has prominent chines that are hard to reach around for setup, and that impede the boat rolling back onto its bottom.
Yet, that was my first kayak, and I learned to roll it on my own in my first lake session. If the mechanics are right, even a “hard-to-roll” boat will come upright.
Length matters I’ve seen a number of beginners have problems with shorter ww boats. Longer kayaks have greater resistance to horizontal rotation and lateral movement, and hold their positions.
When you go into your sweep, short boats may counter-rotate, reducing the planing of the paddle and corresponding lift for the roller to brace off of. Or, as the the paddler commences a roll, the short boat can scoot away sideways, making it difficult to rotate the boat under you. I’ve seen both.
All WW boats? Have you seen a diff between the old school boats like the Pirouette, Piedra types and the square boxes of the playboats, or the inbetween stuff like the Inazones? The reason I am asking is that I feel like there is, a big one.
That said, it is refreshing to hear someone from the WW side say that longer boats can be easier. We keep running into old school WW folks who insist that any WW boat is easier to roll than a sea kayak, even easy ones like the Romany. Something about the allover size seems to distract them from the narrower hull.
Hi celia..i live near oswego, ny ....the closest kayak shop is in Camillus, near syracuse, but the guy's personality turns me off and i'm not interesed in dealing with him. the next closest true kayak shops, are in Rochester area. Next closest to that would be in the Old Forge area. these are all i'm aware of....r'chester is 1.5 hrs away from me and OF is 2.2 hrs from me. btw..i'm 5'7" and 200 #'s
Owned many, seen more Pirouette is one of the easiest rollers, ever. Rounded crossection (deck and bottom) and no edges. Also, relatively shallow boat, making it easy for most to get their offside blade up and over the bottom.
The latter point is what makes some contemporary designs more difficult. If you have a deep, slab-sided boat, you need more flexibility to get the paddle into position. And, if it has some hard edges, they can offer rolling resistance.
When I’m coaching someone having trouble rolling a sea kayak, it’s usually in their head (like most rolling issues). There’s two exceptions to this.
With some, it’s the longer paddle that’s the problem, not the longer boat. A longer touring paddle reduces paddle dexterity. Some people have trouble getting it into the setup and managing it through the roll. If I see this, I switch them to a whitewater paddle to learn with. The longer paddle does have more leverage, but the gap is closed by blade size.
Another aspect is the flip-up rudder on some sea kayaks. Rightside up, it’s a rudder in the stored position. Upside down, it’s a skeg and resists rolling.
Even with these factors, a decent roll prevails. Almost all significant barriers are mental.
Y'r right, Oswego is a surprising distance from anywhere. My sister went to college there.
That said, you are sitting hard onto the Great Lakes there. I would bet that if you posted on the Getting Together board here on pnet you'd find some paddlers close to you, maybe among them someone who would be willing to help you get going on a roll. I know of very few people who have a solid roll themselves and aren't more than happy to help others.
I understand wanting to avoid someone that you think is a jerk. I have been told of situations where the person who was acting as instructor just had a lousy personality and made what should be a fun experience into a torture.
I just went looking for clubs and, as you said, most all of them are south of you. I did find indications of a kayak club at the University though - may be worth seeing if anything is active there. And if you want to consider the idea of getting a beater WW boat that'd be handy for the purpose, you are in a pretty good location. I'd guess that you'd find a lot of them for sale not far from you because of your manageable reach to the Adirondacks. Check on Northeast Paddler's Message Board or Craig's list.
These boats would be a lot easier to haul over beaver dams to explore creeks that feed into the lake than a boat like the Solstice. Still the question of your size though.