"Barriers are mental"
Absolutely agree. Mine were - fear and loathing and all.One of the things that kept me going was that the physical capability was present including orientation under water. But once that paddle was in my hand and the upper body was moving, all the mental stuff hit.
size matters ?
Hi ceila …you seem concerned about my size …i was curious as to why …is 200#'s abit too much for most WW boats?? also keep in mind i’m lookin for a boat to fish from (per another post on pnet, someplace here!) and since the solstice is my primary boat, i feel that is the boat i should learn to roll on …but i see your point about using something smaller to start with…It’s just a $$$ thing, since i’m already lookin for a fishing kayak.
I said I would post today after rolling
the Cetus vs. my Eddyline 17.5 Nighthawk. The Cetus feels like it might be a little quicker to rotate up, yet I still blew a few rolls in the Cetus today. It was at the end of the paddle, ice flows everywhere, and I was getting tired and my brain hurt from the freeze. In summary, I do not feel there is a big enough rolling difference in these two boats to get excited about it. For that matter, unless your boat is VERY wide, I would not make this a big issue. When you get your roll you will roll whatever boat you apply yourself to, but you still have to practice it often.
spotter
certainly helps—unless you really want to practice swimming and wet exits
My question about your size
– Last Updated: Jan-28-08 5:54 AM EST –
It was because of my suggestion that you find something like an old school WW boat to start with. These boats tend to be so tuned to size that a difference of 30 pounds in weight can put you into a different model, and with the newest ones a big shoe size can as well. At 200 pounds, for example, you might be closer to a Dagger RPM Max than the regular RPM.
That said, at that weight you also have considerable more advantage than I would to roll the Solstice. At 135 pounds, a few less when I had the Squall actually, the Solstice was verging on impossible for me to get lifted between volume and fit. You will find that you have better leverage because you will be sinking the boat more in the water and likely fit tighter in the cockpit.
If your next intended purchase is a fishing boat, that'll likely be a good boat for hauling over beaver dams and the like. And maybe that's not something you ever need either - we happen to have some small creeks and a couple of pieces of the old Erie Canal around here that can be fun to explore and are better suited for a pretty short boat than the sea kayaks. So spending even cheap bucks on an old WW kayak doesn't make the greatest sense.
In sum - your original plan is probably the best and I should shut up. I would suggest three things - try posting on the Getting Together board here closer to warm water to find paddlers closer to you, check out "First Roll" video and consider a trip or even a weekend to Old Forge for some help if you feel like you are getting jammed up.
Yes - thigh braces
The Solstice is an older design and I too can’t remember if it has thigh braces. Some of those early design sea kayaks had crummy little flat outcroppings for your thighs that worked OK for paddling but once the boat was on it’s side your thighs would slip right out. You have to be able to grip the boat with your thighs to roll in the beginning.
If there’s pool sessions in your area, it’s good to attend and usually there’s a lot of “experts” willing to help you. The lay back roll is easier to learn in the beginning than a strong hip snap style roll.
The boat does matter. Often it’s the thigh bracing and fit more than it’s size and shape that can make one easier. Once you get good it won’t matter but in the beginning you need every trick you can get. I glued in huge blocks of foam in my Arluk III when I learned and it made a huge difference. Sometimes you have to ask and try a few boats. When I teach someone, the first thing I do is check out their thigh braces and if they are secure enough in their boat. Sometimes I put them in my boat and they are rolling it and still can’t do their own.
the post is about rolling
– Last Updated: Jan-28-08 9:16 AM EST –
It's silly to turn this into "all boats can roll". Clearly some boats lend themselves to rolling more than others.
Not exactly
It is about choosing a boat or boat design features based on whether that makes the boat easier to roll or not. Clearly a rec boat that is 25" wide with no thigh braces is a non-rolling boat but that is not really relevant. As G2D said, no modern boat is going to be really tough to roll. There are central tendencies for most people when they try to roll a boat. For example, they put most of their energy into the first part of the hip snap. That works well for many boats but doesn’t work very well at all for other boats. Those other boats get labeled as hard to roll when in fact they are easy to roll with an simple adjustment in technique. As another example, I have a playboat that people say is hard to roll but it turns out that leaning forward at the end of the hip snap makes it roll very smoothly. Eric Jackson’s boats roll best with a layback style roll. So, yes, some boats are “hard” to roll until you know how to do it for that boat.
not exactly
It’s about the rolling characteristics of the CD solstice GT. These threads so often spiral out of control because the scope becomes so broad that the OP often walks away more confused than before. If you want to make it a broader discussion that’s fine but I read it as an inquiry as to the GT.
I agree about the spotter…
I think one of the most important parts of learning to roll is having someone standing in the water that is prepared to flip you back over when you miss your roll. Many newbies are still too nervous to even try a boat assisted T-rescue and feel much more comfortable with someone standing in the water next to them.
When I first learned to roll, I would go to a roll practice at a lake and would try to roll up and inevitably swim each time. It was very frustrating and exhausting swimming and then dumping water out of my boat. Finally, a more experienced boater took pity on me and stood in the water and flipped me over when I didn’t make a roll. He also coached me and gave me friendly encouragement.
Rolling Class in Rochester
Bay Creek here in Rochester offers a rolling class, but you’ll need to take a few pre-requisite classes too (unless you arrange something different with them).
Good folks.
http://www.baycreek.com
Eyes open - YES
Eyes open was much easier when I was learning. Now it doesn’t matter.
For the record, it took me ~45 minutes for my first unassisted pool rolls in a stock kayak, and I was able do 1/2 paddle roll and reenter-and-roll before my first 2 hr session was over. This is unabashed BRAGGIN’, but not in a competitive way. I’ve failed miserably at many things in life, so I choose to take credit when/where I can.
Now, I have to figure out how to help my wife out. She cannot open her eyes underwater and clearly doesn’t learn the same way as me…
Eyes open/nose and ears closed!
Some of my friends kid me about my routine before practicing rolls. I don prescription swim goggles, ear and nose plugs and am very comfortable underwater. They all say, yeh but when it counts you won’t have that stuff on and the roll will fail. I disagree: practice has more to do with training effect or muscle memory. When I need to roll for real, it’s my muscle memory that get’s me up every time. The salt water in my eyes, up my nose and in my ears are but a minor annoyance. Parenthetically, I also prepare this way for any fresh water submergence more to protect against sinus infection and worse!
Tried a Valley Aquanaut RM tonight
I came up so fast I flipped right over the other side like a log in a lumberjack log rolling contest. The Cetus is a little easier rolling than the Eddyline Nighthawk 17.5, but the Valley Aquanaut is much easier to roll than the Cetus. I am surprised and if I had not experienced it myself I would be suspect. Learn something new all the time.
Re your wife
– Last Updated: Feb-05-08 11:33 PM EST –
To Grey - Being a non-eye-opener myself... get her full face diving goggles, the ones that cover the nose too. Best choice will be a dive shop if she has a smaller size face, for good fit. Even if she takes a medium goggle OK, it's likely that eye-only goggles and nose plugs won't all fit. At my size - I take a small diving goggle - there isn't enough nose left to secure the nose plugs once I am wearing the goggles that just cover the eyes. You can get stuff in dive shops that'll also keep the fogging down.
But if she has been a swimmer all of her life that way, you should also find that she has considerably better kinesthetic sense under water with her eyes shut than you would.
On how to learn - I know of a number of women both instructors and students who absolutely swear by the basic greenland roll for women. They feel that the GP and that roll work especially well for women with their size and usually greater flexibility. Don't know that it's a reason to do this in your case, but you may want to consider it based on your wife's strengths in the boat.
Are you planning to teach her yourself? Or to ask the real question, is that a good idea? Hope you aren't offended, but I've known of more than one couple where a third party instructor turned out to be a good idea.
Have no problem with eyes only
I’m on my second mask that is eyes only, and the clips fit just fine. One thing I like about eyes only is that I like to breathe through my nose when I when I come up sometimes, so I remove the clips and leave the mask until ready to go under again. The downside is that I forget to put them back on sometimes when I go for another attempt.
Lou
What size Lou?
Like I said, this tends to be an issue for people with smaller faces, more common with women. Those nose plugs just don’t stay on.
it’s a stable kayak
i think it was targeted to the market of people who didn’t know how to roll. It’ll be a challenge but learning how to roll is a challenge. The variables you suggest are pretty much irrelevant.
ditto
something about being stuck upside down in the water in a kayak tends to disconcert most people