"stiffer and less intuitive"
That pretty nicely describes how my “offside” feels too.
Once I gave up on expecting to to feel the same it started working better. Doesn’t “feel” better - but it’s a functioning roll.
This is just another version of what happened getting my very first rolls, where once I stopped trying to make it work and feel the way I thought it should, and paid attention to what was really going on and surrendered to the process it just came together.
A lot of people use different rolls/techniques/variations on different sides to accommodate these things.
Another (common) problem is I do a lot more onside rolls simply because they do feel so much easier. I always do some on both - but do not work them equally yet. If I did I suspect I’d have trouble even using the term “offside” pretty quickly.
Or…
you can work your offside so much that it becomes the “on-side.” That’s what happened with me.
sing
That’d be fun
I remember you posting that. I am not sure I want to overwhelm the good side, but getting them even would be great!
Ditto on Dutky book
Even though the cover makes it looks like a WW kayaker manual, the roll instructions and exercises are useful to all kayakers. He breaks out C-to-C and sweep roll in step-by-step and side-by-side comparisons (line drawings).
Oh, yeah, the exercises are fun boat-control “play time” too.
More Specfic…
in roll practice, or sea kayaking, I don’t have an “off-side.” I can come up on either side when I have the luxury of taking my time, getting into position and rolling up. However, in surf and white water, when I feel I have to get up fast I will automatically go to my left side without thought. If something precludes me from coming up on that side, then I have to think to go to the other side. So by “on-side”, I mean doing without conscious thought. “Off-side” means I have to think about it.
sing
I agree with
the biggest problem when learning is lifting your head.
I have a little saying to remind myself…
At 3 o’clock kiss your knee.
The 3 o’clock is the angle of the paddle during the sweep then its time for the head to come down on the *right knee… this lifts the knee up and drops your weight down. Keep kissing your knee until your up.
*could also be your left knee depending on which side your rolling up from.
But you don’t have to roll to enjoy Kayaking. You just have to get back in “sometimes” very quickly.
Good Point
I hadn’t thought about it before now, but yeah the offside/ onside terminology probably has a subtle effect of reducing self-confidence. So left and right would be a better way to think about it, or more-practiced and less-practiced. (as long as no one minds that it isn’t port and starboard - I still slip and say front and back sometimes rather than bow and stern)
another method
try starting to do your roll by first laying on your back deck , in the finished position. Paddle (greenland) in extended position. Slowly reverse the roll. so I mean, slide off the back deck into the water and slowly use your legs to curl the boat over onto your now "slowly" moving (reverse sweep) paddle, untill your boat lays on your paddle and you are curled forward in a set-up position. Now start back. slowly sweeping (same side up as down) foward at he same time you look at the sky and , with your legs , curl the boat back off the water , then either scull some or just slide onto the back deck in a relaxed manner. Do this on both sides. does away with dis-orientation and slowes your roll. adds tremendous boat control
after you master it on both sides, start by curling the boat over from one side then spinning slightly in the boat re-setting and slowly roll up on the other side.
Best wishes
Roy
I will always have an offside…
it just may not be consistantly the same side! I admit it that I totally overtrain my right side. For a while when I was focused only on playboating, I would roll/screwup using my left side only (I can only initiate ends on the right side which leads to left side screwup rolls). Still I’ve found that when I started focusing on Greenland rolls again, my right side reared its head as the strong side. In my quest to get the “harder” rolls, I repeatedly trained my right side to the point that it will take a lot of practice to re-even the two sides out. I can do most of my repetoire on both sides (including hand rolls) but the “hard” ones (spine, forward finishing behind the back, and elbow) are right side only as of now. Like you alluded to sing, when you are in real conditions, you obviously pick the side you are most comfortable with. For me it’s my right side not because of my form or hipsnap but rather because my right hand paddle dexterity under water is much better than my left hand and thus paddle positioning is quicker.
Back Deck
That’s actually what I am doing on my left as an approach to a sorta roll right now, though not as the full down then back motion you describe. Mostly just the getting back up half. From my experience, I agree that it is much easier to get up by lifting a thigh while sliding the torso onto the back deck than the C to C form that I default to on my right. (Especially since my left hip snap is shakier.)
And yeah - I personally found that having learned that back deck slide a bit before going full bore on the offside scull was hugely useful. It helped with fundamental orientation and lower body control. Though as with all things greenland, in the mind of some instructors I may have stepped a bit into the dark side. 
Got tries 2 and 3 of the offside scull last night, only sunk on the first one, even got up from the latter two on a paddle sweep OK. Not as smooth and pretty as on my right, but up is up.
There seems to be a sweet spot where where you are learning enough new skills at once that you really experience how one is just an extension or a variation of another. It gets fun.
The Funny Thing…
most paddles have the “index” on the right side. Yet I instinctively find the right position for left side and have to think and fine tune on the right side.
Honestly, I probably need to get back to practicing rolls (and other things). I have the back finish hand roll on both sides but I haven’t done any more practice for anything new since early summer. I’ve just been pretty much going out and surfing/ww. Given the chance to surf or practice, well surf wins out every time. We’ve been having too much of a good surfing year, if that is possible.
sing
you’re lucky!
We’re just coming out of one of the driest summers in recent history which means all the rivers around here have been super low. That meant a lot of flatwater playboating and Greenland roll practice. Luckily we’re just starting to get some rain and I’m looking forward to a strong finish to the whitewater season and also catching some fall/winter surf over on Lake Michigan (I’ve only had one good surf day all season and that was up on Lake Superior).
practic
starting from the back deck allows you to reverse the roll any time. untill you are finally willing/able to just hang upside down before deciding when to start back up. This method with a greenland paddle requires no hip snap. Just spin the boat up with a steady hip rotation while arching your back and floating on the water. then slide onto the rear deck. With a euro blade. the movement is the same but just a little faster, and you need to be carefull that your paddle doesn’t dive. The g-paddle doesn’t care so much if it dives a little. If you stop trying to just fling the boat arround and instead, flow into the water form the back deck, gently (no splash) and then curl the boat over, then curl it back and flow out of the water you will find that your roll will become bombproof. After mastering the sweep, then as you hang upside down, practice re setting for other rolls and comming up with the paddle behind the back of the neck etc.
Best wishes
Roy
We kinda hijacked this thread…
Hope it’s OK Lou. But this is a cool manuver. If the full version feels as neat as the back half I’ve been doing, I highly recommend it when you are mentally ready to really mess around upside down.
As to the advice, I plan to get back to a bunch of things, adding in the above manuver, starting next weekend. And see how far I am from a hand roll on my right, get to a shortened paddle for support on my left, etc. But three of us are assessing for (first try) our BCU 3 star assessment tomorrow. Any roll at all is OK for that, and I have a solid modified C to C on my right. And sculling (both sides) is a critical skill for the 3 star.
Since I entered the last four weeks to the assessment with my left side scull being more about swimming than anything else, I’ve really had to focus on getting and staying sideways over there rather than (intentionally) continuing on down. And I just need enough paddle sweep talent to get up somehow from there.
Thanks for the descriptions - of course right now I have a Euro paddle. But I am getting close to putting a GP on my Christmas list. I have paddled with them some, and find them easy on my hands and feel like I could catch up the the diff’s in how the support works comapred to the Euro.
Quite Alright Celia
I am enjoying the discussion, and will file it away for the future.
Lou
first roll/roy’s version
Lou–
What Roy’s describing flows quite naturally from the technique described in First Roll. Instead of falling over and then sweeping forward, as they show halfway through First Roll, try curling slowly over into the sweep as Roy describes. He helped me with it, and when combined with First Roll, the curl worked more smoothly for me than First Roll alone. It’s not a big modification, but it does help with confidence and boat control.
Thanks. I’ll checkit out
Comlimentary or coincident?
I think the differnce between “faling over” and “curling” results from different interpretations and assumptions about what you’re seeing and think your supposed to do. Maybe Jay doesn’t explain it in the video the same way these other guys are, but personally I see this as all the same thing.
Whatever it is, it’s all good.
Video clip
Have a look at the clip below. This mental image made everything click and helped Kim get her first (Standard Greenland) sweep rolls.
Note how the flow is naturally smooth from the compact setup position reaching up, through the outward sweep and into the layback…
http://sunflower.bio.indiana.edu/~rhangart/plantmotion/flowers/moonflower/moon.mov
What Kwikle Said
“if there was something to practice it would be keeping your torso at the surface after capsize.”
Eric Jackson talks about this. He says the only time you NEED a roll is when your brace fails. When your brace fails you have your torso very near the surface. No need to go to the set up position, or what Jackson calls home base, when you already have your paddle extended out in your bracing position.