Yes The Back Deck is a ww play trick … being confused here with back deck finish on a sweep;
No confusion on my part… Not a play trick. It is a legit roll for certain applications. Same deal as finishing on your back deck - miss that roll, flip back over and your face is exposed. It is nothing that I or any legit governing body teaches. Dig into Kent Ford’s videos on how a sweep roll is finished.
your suspicions have no founding. and you can see exactly who the reply is to by looking at the icon
you assume by what criteria? because I paddle Greenland style now.
Assume what?
I apologize to the OP for the thread derailment.
Terminology across the different disciplines can be confusing.
again i apologize.
Best Wishes
Roy
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There is some good value in this thread. All contributors should realize this is proof that we need to be clear on our meanings because terminology is not standardized.
All rolls fall ion 1 of 2 categories. Back deck finishing and forward finishing.
But many other things need to be detailed and clarified. For example the “Standard Greenland Roll” so called in GL competition, is sometimes called a back finishing sweep roll. a rear roll, a rear finishing roll, and maybe a few other names too.
A roto-roll is sometimes called a helicopter roll, a back deck roll, the reverse sweep roll, and the 360 roll
And there are others too.
My guess is that you never served on the SEIC? That body spends a lot of time standardizing terminology across disciplines, and working with national team coaches and physiologists on mechanics of movement to develop curriculum.
If someone with an opinion, a YouTube channel, and little in the way of professional paddlesports credentials comes out and calls a movement by a different terminology, or promotes a movement that puts the paddler in a compromised position, that is a reflection on their depth of knowledge.
You are 100% correct because I have never heard of SEIC. What is that?
Maybe it’s something I SHOULD know about?
Safety, Education and Instruction Committee. You will need to be a certified instructor, or ideally a certified Instructor Trainer across several disciplines, to be elected.
OK I see. Part of ACA.
Nothing I’d have the time money or desire to get into.
But probably worth more for those closer to ocean waters.
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While you fine folks were “discussing”, I was out on the lake!
I decided to practice groups of 4 - what I will now call “Haley rolls” (Haley was my instructor on Tuesday) versus Dubside rolls (ie. what I most often see called the “sweep roll” versus what I see called the standard Greenland roll, a type of layback roll).
Started off using my paddle float to cheat, and it went really well. I was able to practice/clarify various things from my lesson, especially and what I’m starting to think of as the “head snap” - downwards with the head to make sure it’s coming up last.
The Dubside roll is definitely less effort, unsurprisingly, since you stay closer to the axis of rotation. But the Haley roll was proving almost as easy to do. I was having fun.
After at least 30 of these, alternating, I took off the float (which I’d progressively deflated). I was getting a little mentally and physically tired by this point. I managed two “successful” Dubside rolls, but failed two, and also failed the two Haley rolls I tried.
My diagnosis, (other than starting to loose focus after well over an hour), I definitely noticed that by the time I tried to hip snap, my paddle was already like 45deg down. I think I had a blade angle issue during the sweep. This would make sense versus having the paddle float on. I think the paddle float is less about the actual support from the buoyancy and more about keeping the blade positioned correctly.
Some of the info/vids are a little confusing on this, especially regarding the Greenland paddle, but on reflection it seems to me that you need to have a slightly climbing blade angle during any kind of sweep, regardless of paddle type? That’s physics.
I may also have been slipping on the “sweeping wide and out”, watching the blade - although if you have a diving paddle this is pretty moot. By this point I had also lost the ability to maintain a sculling brace.
So, a great session overall. I felt relaxed, even when trying and failing twice on the same attempt. I think I know what my problem was at the end (and any comments are welcome on that aspect).
I think the above discussions are valid (if slightly overheated occasionally). For me, I’ll be very happy if I never need to execute a “real” roll - I’m not into WW and I have no desire to be a “Sing Surfer” 
. If I ever really need it I would probably consider it a failure to plan. I kayak for a quiet life, but the more prepared I am, the quieter it can be. Plus, re-entries are such a PITA 
.
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Cool.
Keep in mind your head’s position, on its own, does nothing. Rather it is a proxy for what is going on with knee pressure, and is a result of an appropriate kinetic chain reaction. If your head comes up that means you are pulling on the onside knee, and your boat flops back down on top of you - roll never completed. If your head drives further down in the water that is an indication that you are pulling the offside knee, and righting your boat. Hip snap is not a term in my instructor certification courses. I teach what is actually going on.
When messing around in flatwater, or when I have the luxury of time, I often want to feel the boat’s cockpit pressing into my onside torso. Then I focus on the boat’s cockpit pressing into my offside torso. Then I think about bringing my body up.
Do your roll, perfectly, 200 - 400 times in a benign situation. When you need a combat roll you will probably find that you rolled without even being conscious of it. You will astound yourself. The most amazing roll that I have ever seen is a buddy of mine rolling on a huge wave face, on one of the biggest pieces of water in North America, and maintaining his surf.
DM me when you get comfortable with your roll on both sides and I will give some drills to further bulletproof it.
Enjoy!
Thanks, yes, I understood that the head thing is more symptom than cause, and that makes sense.
The 200-400 suggestion is welcome - I was wondering how long to keep going. I’ll be back out next week (but I do want to actually just do some fun padding, so I think I’ll do an overnight, just with a little rolling practice thrown in).
The one time I had to wet exit in a real situation (a sweeper), I joke that I was out so fast I barely got wet, so that also rings true!
How you do with visualization? Some people are able to watch and think about a movement pattern and then execute. Roll practice, or any practice, need not take place at the venue. You could be sitting on a plane awaiting takeoff, close your eyes, and ask, “What does that perfect, effortless roll feel like? What does it feel like to bring the boat around and then bring my body up? What does it feel like to do this with virtually no pressure on the paddle?” That visualization will shorten that learning curve.
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As a former canoeist who has to deal with the differences between US, Canadian and British english I am confused now with your use of the terms “onside” and “offside”. Or is the interpretation of these terms totally different for kayaking than canoeing?
Or is this a “SEIC” thing?
Greenland paddlers weren’t trying to win races. They were hunting for sustenance in frigid waters that would kill if they didn’t have bombproof rolls. The GP is definitely more efficient in terms of not tiring the paddler out over a long period. It’s also an easier tool for rolling.
When you learn Greenlandic rolling today, you start off with the easiest roll, which for most people is the standard sweep roll that has you finishing on the back deck. But, of course you can progress to learning more difficult “combat” rolls, such as the front-finishing storm roll. There is definitely a point to learning the sweep roll: it gets you more comfortable with the body movement you need to use for any roll.
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Again we need to define terms here folks. “Efficient” is not “faster”. Those two words have different meanings.
In this context, Efficient would be a tool that turns a given input of power into the maximum amount of distance covered.
Which is more efficient in turning a gallon of gas into milage, a Toyota Corrina or a top fuel dragster?
Which aircraft turns a gallon of fuel into more distance covered? A Boeing 747 or an F4 Phantom?
Which is faster?
No one would argue the facts an F4 Phantom is faster then a 747 or a dragster is faster then a Corrina. But faster was not what was spoken about. See the point?
In some cases efficient can = faster, but that’s not Germain to word definitions.
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Quick update, 'cause I know you were waiting
Just got back from a 2 nighter on a lake (Lake Santeetlah) and did a little rolling work each day (not a ton, I was trying to just chill!)
Anyway, my successful roll count, without float, is now up to 15, so that’s just 185 to go, or is it 385? ;-). I think I “get it”, just need to drill - not all of them have been things of beauty! And I’m still using the mask, unloaded boat.
Changing the blade angle of my sweep has really helped - I saw one guy refer to it as “paws to claws”, but just getting support from the blade in the early part of the sweep and preventing a diving blade.
I’ve been using the full length of the paddle (a GP), but not finishing lying fully back on the deck, which I guess makes this a hybrid between a sweep and a Greenland. Anyway, it’s mostly working and I’m way more comfortable. It’ll continue to evolve. Next chance I get I need to drill like 20 or 30 in one session. I’m happy with my setup and sweep, but not totally happy with the recovery. I had a couple of failures, but was able to reset and succeed at the second attempt.
It helped that the water temp there is 79f!
In gratitude for all your input, here’s a photo! My campsite was just on the point at the left.
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Luckily the boats, paddles and the water don’t care about the right terminology but only the right way to do something, depending on what you want to achieve.
Although I am still curious about the, in my view confusing, “SEIC”(?) interpretation of the terms onside and offside. Or was it just a mixup of these terms by @Durangatan?
The terms onside and offside are consistent across disciplines and NGBs. SEIC does not interpret. It leads in terminology and creating the curriculum that is taught by certified instructors and ITs, and collaborates with other NGBs to insure consistency.
Perhaps pursue your instructor cert for deeper understanding?