Just want to share some experiences and thoughts and see what y’all throw back at me! Sorry if this gets lengthy!
I’m on a mission to “get” a roll. I paddle a 17ft sea kayak and use a Greenland paddle.
I started out watching YT videos, then did some gradual practice at the lake, sculling braces, paddle float partial rolls etc. Just yesterday I took a lesson. It’s all been good and I’m pretty sure I’m on a good path overall.
My pondering really arises from my lesson. Due to a host of circumstances, I took the lesson from someone who is very experienced in teaching rolling…for WW. She was not a sea kayaker. Several people, including a previous sea kayak instructor and the director of the WW school said “it doesn’t matter, they are the same”. I’m coming to think that’s only partially true! Maybe conceptually… OR actually the difference isn’t WW vs sea kayak, but Greenland paddle vs euro.
Here’s where we get to terminology - I saw something online somewhere that a Sweep roll and a standard Greenland Roll are “the same”, but they’re clearly not. What we did in the lesson yesterday was basically work on Sweep roll technique, using my GP. This works, and is, I’m sure a valid roll (aren’t they all, if they get you up?), but it got me looking more into the differences and similarities.
The setup is similar - two main differences are where you hold the paddle (unless you’re doing a petawawa (sp?) roll with your Euro paddle), and the pivot point - left shoulder for Greenland roll, gunwale opposite the butt for sweep).
For the sweep roll, my instructor talked quite a bit about “winding up” with some opposite knee. The only sea kayak reference I’ve found to this was that it helps with the more advanced Greenland rolls like the hand roll etc, but is not needed for the standard.
The sweep roll seems to have a very aggressive hip snap, with the paddle at approx 90 degrees. The Greenland seems much more relaxed (although still somewhat snappy) and the whole thing just flows as you slither up onto the back deck. My instructor yesterday had me finish pretty upright, whereas the Greenland is VERY laid back.
In both cases, blade angle is important (although I read that’s a lot easier with a GP). In both cases, bringing the shoulders, neck and then head up last are critical (and the lesson was really helpful for that).
So…I’ll head back out to the lake in a day or two, but I’m wondering…should I work on the Sweep roll the instructor was giving me, or the std Greenland roll that is perhaps better suited to my boat and paddle? Maybe I should just continue to play with both? Maybe I’m overthinking (wouldn’t be the first time)? I just don’t want to get confused mid-roll 
Anyway, curious as to any thoughts and experiences, opinions from the fine folks here.
You are overthinking it.
Any roll that gets you up allows you to breathe is OK. In a combat situation very few of us use rolls that we model for students. However perfect practice, and executing perfectly in benign situations increases your chances of nailing it when the hammer comes down. What I call, “Patterns of Grace / Moments of Pressure.”
The director was correct. They are all the same. Physics are physics. Forward stroke, sweeps, rudders - any other stroke - even the roll - the most efficient form of those movements is the same, regardless of what you are paddling.
I don’t know what you are calling a “Greenland Roll”, but if it is that thing where you end up on your rear deck, that is just nonsense. Do that in surf or a river and you will end up in a bad place.
As far as a C-to-C verses sweep roll - same thing - you are putting functional tension on the offside knee. That is what rights your boat. The two styles of rolling leverage the same mechanics, but go about it in a different way. What roll I teach is largely a matter of the student’s flexibility and their boat’s depth. A student with less ROM and a deeper boat will be better served with a sweep roll.
YouTube videos are generally shit. There are a few highly credentialed paddlers who have put out good videos. Some are instructors. However as the person who mentored the instructor trainers there are instructors, and there are Instructors. Kent Ford has a good video, as does Chris Spelius. Chris and I have a dry land progression that I generally start with. It sounds like you came across a great paddling school (would love to know which one). Stick with them.
As far as the director’s comment… he is so correct. It is all the same stuff. Playing on a river and rolling 20 - 30 times has honed my roll to the point that I never even think about rolling. It just happens. As a sprint athlete my forward stroke allows me to get to camp well before everyone else, and I can catch waves that others only dream of.
One domain builds on another. They are not exclusive. Your movement pasterns are your movement patterns. Work on honing efficiency - regardless of craft.
There are 2 types of c 2 c that are common in ww . the sweep c2c and the original or pure c2c. it sounds like your instructor was teaching the sweep c2c.
the original is rarely taught these days. it has the paddle airborne until the 90 deg point and then makes contact with the water at the 90 deg point with a downward thrust -
both tend to be an all or none roll and are hard to save if not properly done.
I prefer a screw roll for ww or surf. Some instructors only know one type or roll.
A pure sweep can be done with either kind of paddle. so can a sweep c2c.
or a screw roll or a original c2c.
Do WHATEVER works best for you … I prefer doing many different rolls for fun
The standard Greenland roll is easy and if not done to perfection you can always slide back into the water and save the roll.
Your only at the beginning of the journey.
I’m a relative novice to everything but I did take a qajaq rolling seminar with TRAQs (Traditional Qajaqers of the South) and pretty much every instructor (and several of these instructors have had training by Greenlanders) said that the white water type of roll is nothing like the roll performed by the Greenlanders.
Greenlanders have been rolling kayaks for thousands of years out on the open ocean in rough conditions and is a matter of life/death to them… if it didn’t work, they wouldn’t do it… unlike @Durangatan’s statement which is rather dismissive without an apparent understanding of the how/why it is done that way.
If you want to learn Greenland rolling, I think you’d be better served by finding people who can teach you.
There is Qajaq TC (https://qajaqtc.org/) in the upper mid-west and TRAQS https://traqsfest.org/ down in the SE. If nothing else you can try QAJAQ USA (https://www.qajaqusa.org/)
YES The Standard Greenland Sweep roll should be energy conserving. most ww rolls have a different goal. The two have some things in common and can be both achieved with either paddle.
Here’s the deal with Greenland style paddling… Yes, what they did with the materials that they had was extraordinary. However they did not have advanced engineering degrees, CAD programs, composite materials, video analysis, lactate measurement devices, or electromyography testing.
Show me real data from peer reviewed scientific journals, show me race results that point to Greenland style paddling is more efficient. Look at all major distance races put on (several of which I have been the race director for) - not a Greenland style boat or paddle in the field.
Cool if you like the nostalgia of it. I love and keep fine double guns for that reason. However don’t disillusion yourself into thinking it is a better (more efficient) form of paddling.
Thank you all for the input so far. I knew this one might have elements of controversy!
I’m conscious of overthinking, but I think that’s normal, and not necessarily a bad thing for a beginning roller. I think roym summarized it - they are different, but both have things in common and both can work with either paddle - this is helpful to confirm what I’m thinking. I appreciate that the physics are the same but I need to learn the body movements that take advantage of those physics. I’m also aware that in a few months (hopefully) this will seem like a fairly arbitrary and pedantic distinction and discussion!
I know a lot of the YouTube folks doing Greenland rolling (eg. the iconic Dubside) are “rolling for rolling sake” or for the Greenland rolling competitions, which are cool, but not what I’m aiming for. My objective is to have wider margins for my low adrenalin enjoyment of nature.
I think in the above replies, in a funny way, everyone is right!
The school is Nantahala Outdoor Center in Bryson City. I did a WW class with them recently (not because I’m the least interested in WW, but to gain confidence and comfort), and it was a blast. Being in the mountains of Western NC it might be a challenge to find anyone specializing in Qajaq stuff - but I’ll take a look. I’m aware that as a sea kayaker I moved to the wrong place but that’s OK.
I just set up my next trip to coastal Maine for August, so will be working hard until then! You have all helped clarify very much. I’ll play around with “both” and I think now I can be clear in my mind as I practice as to what I’m trying to accomplish each time. I think I also read recently that in practice, everyone’s roll is a hybrid, which kind of echoes Durangatan’s first reply. I’ll get there - either way the lesson was very helpful, even if I end up doing something slightly different.
Thought I would comment on your original post and some of your observations.
There are plank rollers and log rollers as types of kayaks … how the hull rolls. this is the only reason for the hip snap. To get over that edge.
With a log roller type kayak hull, nothing more than a nudge is needed, some don’t even need that. they can be rolled very slow and very smooth. I like to roll slow, smooth and in total control of the kayak … from start to finish. using very little energy. I tried to upload a video but this sight NOW won’t allow me. (new management)
You note a hands only roll ww vs Greenland.
usually in ww a double pump is done , with hands cupped , either the two side by side or one following the other. A Greenland one is done with the palm up and spread out like a balance brace.
To understand rolling … think of how a cat falls from a table but lands on it’s feet
Best Wishes
Roy
That nicely sums up my waveski compared to seakayak. Slightly different technique needed for each.
Bottom line - any roll that gets you back upright is “correct”.
-sing
“My objective is to have wider margins for my low adrenalin enjoyment of nature.”
That is a factor of skill development. We overcome fear by building skill.
“The school is Nantahala Outdoor Center in Bryson City. I did a WW class with them recently (not because I’m the least interested in WW, but to gain confidence and comfort), and it was a blast.”
If NOC, and you had a conversation with Tosh on rolling, that is your best source of the truth. There is far more wisdom on that staff level than any online forum group. And what you learned in a WW class is immediately applicable to any other aspect of paddling.
You may want to chat with Tosh and see if anyone on staff is also on the Wildwater Team. Honing your forward stroke will allow you to go further with less effort, and teach you seperation, which is essential in rolling.
And more thanks for the input, all!
I had a couple more thoughts lying in bed imaging myself upside down (I bet we’ve all done it).
Perhaps one perspective is that there’s a continuum. If you take a “competition style layback standard Greenland roll” and repeat 10 times, each time centering the paddle slightly, sweeping 10% faster, hip snapping 10% sooner and faster, coming up 10% more vertically/sideways versus laid back, after 10 repetitions you’ll end up with the type of roll my NOC instructor was teaching. The physics remain, the principles remain, but the forces and timings change. The further your body gets from the axis of rotation, the more force is needed, but the faster you can get up, if that’s important.
The Greenland roll competitors are usually in tuiliks, without even a PFD - I couldn’t lay back that far even if I tried. The competitions are really cool, but you probably wouldn’t take the Westminster Dog Show working breed champion on a duck hunt?
There are not many videos out there of actual unplanned rolls in ocean conditions, but the couple I’ve seen do not have the protagonist lying back on the deck waiting for applause , even when using a GP.
OK, I think I’ve reached the point where I need to shut up and get back out on the water! Tomorrow! Maybe I’ll experiment with my continuum idea and see what feels best - for now just comfortable and reliable in easy conditions to move on from. In time I’ll have to ditch the mask, load up the kayak, capsize from strange positions etc.
It was winter. No one around to applaud the crazy dude.
-sing
Thanks durangatan. I did not talk to Tosh, but my instructor, Hayley is super experienced, and I hear you - these guys are professionals. I did get a ton out of the lesson. I really came here just to have the conversation with someone other than the inside of my own head and it was successful!
“I don’t know what you are calling a “Greenland Roll”, but if it is that thing where you end up on your rear deck, that is just nonsense. Do that in surf or a river and you will end up in a bad place.”
While I wouldn’t use it in a shallow rocky stream, the “back deck” roll is what I use most in surf. Partly this is due to me mostly using EPs and waveskis in surf that are about 10 times harder to roll than most seakayaks. I have never had any formal instruction for greenland rolls, but the backdeck roll works very nicely with my Greenland paddle. Using the power knee and hip snap keeping head down and body low in the water while skulling/bracing with the paddle are the things that work for me in any boat with any paddle.
You likley would use the back deck roll in a boney river, because that is the movement pattern that you have neurologically built through repetition. Dig into the research of Dr. Anders Ericsson for more on building neurological pathways.
Over the decades I’d say that about half of the dedicated private roll sessions that I have taught were with people who have had tens of thousands of dollars in reconstructive and dental surgery from impacts with rocks when upside down.
You should seek out professional instruction with an Instructor trainer. I am very familiar with wave skis and a sweep roll is the ticket.
Please explain how they were upside down and doing anything about rolling from the back deck.
The time you are on the back deck is when you are finishing. If there is any negative to finishing on the back deck it would be getting pinned there by water pressure when trying to sit back up.
for that to happen you are in so very serious water … far more than has been posted here.
Not sure who you were replying to… A back deck roll is actually used regularly in freestyle. I would never use one, or develop it as a go-to for general paddling, but can still do one to both sides if the need arises.
The only roll I can think of right now where you are on the back deck during the roll is a rarely done roll called the mummy roll.
otherwise you got slammed back there because of depth and it has nothing to do with how you are going to choose to do the finish.
Then I suspect you haven’t done much playboating on rivers?