White water perspective
A roll is (now) concidered to be a fairly basic skill in WW kayaking. Little more needs to be said to justify that being able to roll is a (really) good idea.
Not that long ago, rolling was concidered an exotic skill. Derek Hutchinson and the WW community developed the idea that a roll was an accessible skill for many people.
There is no argument that a roll is the fastest way to recover from a capsize. It’s also fairly common for people to have problems rolling when “push comes to shove”.
The BCU (as far as I know) do not sanction the use of a paddle float. Their firm position is that one should never paddle alone and people in the group should have experience with assisted rescues. (Pretty much every sea kayaker should be able to perform an assisted rescue.)
I suspect that the paddle-float reentry (not reentry and roll) doesn’t work very well beyond flat water. The problem with the reentry and roll is getting rid of the water that is in the cockpit (especially in rough water).
There are some (a few) skilled kayakers who do not roll and are not inclined to encourage people to learn. I suspect that this group is getting smaller.
There are some people who, even with a lot of effort, never achieve a roll. There’s not much reason these people can’t sea kayak with a reasonable amount of safety. Though, going out alone in challenging conditions is not a great idea.
There is really no reason not to try to learn a roll if you spend a fair amount of time sea kayaking. If you don’t have a roll, there’s no reason to be excluded from (much of) sea kayaking (I’d guess that only 10-20% of sea kayakers can roll).
"When I took a kayak class years ago "
???
Must be incredibly up to date. I never really got past that bit in the first line to micro-analyze the remaining flatulence.
Augustus Dogmatycus
MMV
you’ve got to know you’re trolling?
You can’t be this sadistic? Can you?
Are you enjoying this?..
Flatulence with a capital F
I actually agree with the basic premise that you don’t have to roll to be safe in a seakayak. But I think the apocryphal story related here, is simply the invention of Pash’s or his misinterpretation of what he was told at the time. The fact that he can’t say when and where this took place makes me believe it is pure invention. I know several people that are associated with Southwind and I really can’t believe any of them would spew such nonsense. I’m wondering if Pash is the victim of early onset Alzheimers or some other form of dementia, I see no other reason for some of his wierd, bizarre and falacious posts. Perhaps Brent could put a dislaimer warning label on his user name so he does not mislead beginners.
rolling
is not necessary skill in south florida. You can kayak all year long in safely warm water and if you exercise the one REAL sea kayaking skill that trumps all others, you won't even have to do a re-entry; That skill is common sense and it will keep you out of thunderstorms, heavy seas and breaking waves.
I have been kayaking here for over two years nearly every weekend with only one capsize a few years ago when I started in my QCC. And that was because I was still learning the common sense skill and didn'r have enough sense to stay away from a small breaking wave in shallow water.
Now, if you want to surf in shark infested, frigid, tsunami waves, learn every other secondary techinique you can to offset your lack of the number one skill, COMMON SENSE.
We’ve awakened the Troll community
Is this the same Jim
who was drooling over a Nigel Dennis kayak and getting stoked about “This is the Sea” ?
You won’t even have to do a re-entry??
Do you imply you'll never capsize or your intentions are to swim back towing your boat?
Do you really believe common sense will keep you from capsizing forever?
I laugh at people saying they never capsized, I'm scared by people saying they never will
I remember you were waiting for warmer water to practice rolling, isn't warm enough for you yet?
YUP
got a Pygmy kayak instead…and haven’t touched my QCC since.
I was going to stay away from these time consuming message boards, but I just couldn’t resist this topic…one of my favorite trolling themes.
I am IN a kayak
in order to paddle ON the water. When I want to swim, I use my pool.
There are a lot of creatures in the salt water who are better adapted to swimmng there than we are. I am happy just to visit them from above with an occasional dip when I feel like it. Horsing around upside down in deep salt water is just not my bag. Maybe someday, but not now.
Some friendly advice:
If anyone has a problem with my way of paddling, they should lodge an official complaint somewhere. Whining on this message board about people who don't want to paddle "the official" way is just not going to do any good.
I always thought that you might
just be f#$%^& with us but this last post cancelled any doubt.
The only other option is that you are brain damaged.
Why do I get upset?
I’m the last one who believe that rolling is a mandatory skill for paddling (although very useful for many reasons) but telling that a wet exit doesn’t need to be learned since all you need is common sense could be very, very dangerous for all the beginners who visit this forum.
They might not know who you are and believe this BS.
a problem
Seems to be the consenus with Pahsimeroi's posts in the first place. Just like Peter_K's response.....if you would take a look at Pahsimeroi's previous posts, you would see how he makes himself out to be the total expert in the sport.....look at the previous debate on flares and the pure speculation by Pah. Pah targeted me pretty hard on the subject of safety devices (ie flares and other equipment) as if he was the master, yet he hasn't been on an extended trip, with a loaded boat (that he presumed would be harder to roll) and has the audacity to call me & others ignorant for safety and redundancy??
The last trip my wife and I took, we practiced rescues and rolls after each paddling day before setting up camp....in fairly cold water...with very heavy boats. However, Pah demanded that my PFD setup was stupid and would hinder my self rescue ability....what he didn't know, and what we were trying to convince him of, was that I wouldn't paddle with my gear setup in a configuration that would disrupt my ability to get back into my boat quickly, whether I was rolling or executing a rescue.
This new post seems to shed a little light on his experience and the fact that he probably shouldn't "ride" people as hard as he does because he doesn't have much to back it up.
Trolling is an abbreviation for…
“Terrified of rolling”.
Mario,
I wasn't directly addressing your post. And I don't know where you read that I don't believe it's a good idea to learn wet exit-re-entry or even rolling. I just said it is not necessary if you practice common sense in south florida. If you see BS in that position, then you fall into the eltist group with their rules on how one must enjoy a kayak.
I would wager a higher percentage of people die from kayaking by not using common sense than do from not knowing a roll or re-entry technique. It begs the question "how did the unfortunate kayaker get into such a mess in the first place?"
What is an accident? Is it an unexpected or unforseen event. Accidental death in a kayak can only occur when it is not forseen.Good common sense would forsee the probability of the event. Barring the unlikely events of a meteor strike, a bull shark attack or a drunk boater or heart attack, paddling around in calm, warm water within swimming distance form shore is relatively safe even without a roll or re-entry technique. And besides, only the very feeble or handycapped would not be able to climb back into a kayak in calm waters.
All I’m saying
is that common sense will not always keep you from swimming and that you MUST have a RELIABLE way to get back into your boat.
Rolling is, in my opinion, the best one, wet-exit and re-entry is also a skill every paddler should have, recreational or not.
I believe practicing either one requires getting wet.
this is the dumbest thread ever,
mengele has done it again.
Winner!
OK Mario, you figured out (part of what) Jim’s real problem is - now just paddle away. L
Posters like Pash and Jim will always think we care about what they do - like it’s all about them. They don’t get that we only reply to their BS for the benefit of the beginners/lurkers.
They will also never understand that “need” should not be the driving force for learning to roll or practice other rescue options. If you wait to learn these skills until you feel you need them - it’s often too late.
I don’t care what their personal opinions or feelings are on the matter. I only care that they present them here as something more than that, which only serves to encourage lax attitudes and gives people excuses to skip practice and trust to their luck. Not much “common sense” in that, is there?
I have no idea what Pash’s deal is, but Jim has serious water related issues (deep seated fears) - and had to be brow beaten to death to get him to even do wet exits (a basic REQUIREMENT for safe SINK paddling if ever there was one). I assume he’s done a paddle float rescue at some point by now - but most likely in his pool and certainly not in conditions or practiced (too cold in S FL L!).
I have some compassion in regards to Jim’s fears given how they arose - but he is in no position to offer advice on the pros and cons of various rescues/recovery techniques.
Personally, I don’t feel comfortable paddling with people who avoid basic skill work. They put others at greater risk too. Anyone paddling with Jim should be forewarned that they might have to pull his ass out of the drink - or will at least end up with sore abs from laughing at his MacArthur imitation as he wades ashore.
(Welcome back Jim!)
LOL
A beginner’s perspective…
I bought my first kayak this summer… a sit-on-top (O.K. Scrambler) to play in the waves. At the time, the expert at Kitty Hawk Sports in NC told me I would have better boat control and could even start learning to roll if I considered the thigh straps for it.
“Roll in a sit-on-top?”, I asked… What for if you can just jump back on and it drains…
He agreed it is overkill, but his point was that it’s FUN, and if I like kayaking enough to buy a sit-on-top, chances are I’ll get other types of kayaks also. That has turned out to be true… just bought a touring kayak, scheduled an “Essentials” class in a couple of weeks, and a 2-day trip from Assateague in October.
In a way, he was encouraging me to try rolling because he thought that would make me even more enthusiastic about kayaking…
I’ve been looking at advice on the web from a BUNCH of resources, talking to local clubs and instructors, and… with the exception of 1 or 2 kayakers (rec kayak owners mostly)… All have insisted that a roll is something that will make the sport more fun, more safe, and make one more confident in the water. The books I’ve read (authors escape me… but “Sea Kayakers Handbook” and “Sea Kayaking Basics”, as well as Sea Kayakers Magazine “Safety and Rescue” all reach consensus on how the sport is more enjoyable and safe if you can roll reliably.
Even if one instructor in some shop told me I don’t need to roll… the competing body of evidence is so overwhelming that I am going to learn it anyway… or try, I guess.
I never did try to roll that scrambler. Was having too much fun playing with the dolphins.
I start my rolling training in 3 weeks, after my Essentials class.
See ya on the water.
-Brian (not one to offer advice yet)
"Wager"
A rather reasonable post -except for your wager:
“I would wager a higher percentage of people die from kayaking by not using common sense than do from not knowing a roll or re-entry technique.”
I agree on common sense going a long way. Here is where we differ - and it’s a critical difference: You are treating common sense and skills development as somehow being separate things. I see learning/practicing rolling and a range of reentry techniques as the very definition of common sense in regards to kayaking.
How can anyone paddling a SINK without basic self rescue/recovery skills appropriate to potential conditions* consider themselves to be using common sense on the water?
You have the luxury of warm waters - which allows you a wider margin for error. Nothing more. Yes, as a result you are reasonably safe in your venues. Fine, for you - but what does that view have to offer anyone else? Where does it leave you if Paradise decides to throw you a curve?
On a related note: To you a capsize may be an accident. To me it’s become a common and enjoyable occurrence. Something I do regularly and intentionally now - and by doing so become less and less likely to do so inadvertently. I simply wish you could personally experience this difference in perspective firsthand on the water. Your opinion would change (expand may be a better word) immediately. Mine has.
-
- By “potential” conditions I mean the expected conditions PLUS a range of other potentialities like T-storms, unexpected wind/sea increases, weird waves/breaks, rouge boat wakes, large critter contact, hidden rock/log/junk, gear malfunctions, and other such things that are not unrealistic to expect to encounter at some point. Not every possible eventuality - just ones known to happen and catch paddlers off guard. Better to have skills to handle them and not just your easy warm flat expected conditions, no?