Yeah, who needs CoffeeII for dumb
threads. People are standing in line to take his place.
Maybe not advice…
… but probably the best perspective of any post in this thread. Thanks Brian!
With the attitude skills are not a burden but an opportunity to increase you enjoyment you will have no trouble learning. Too bad everyone can’t see this as clearly.
As clear as the night
– Last Updated: Sep-14-05 10:15 AM EST –
"With the attitude skills are not a burden but an opportunity to increase you enjoyment you will have no trouble learning. Too bad everyone can't see this as clearly."
Part of the reason not "everyone" see it as clearly is because many here actually make it too complicated!
There's a danger(!) that by over-stating the "NEED" of rolling as a safety "pre-requisite" for paddling a SINK that it actually does come across as a burden rather than an enjoyment. Add to it mis-information from some "old-timer" that rolling is an "advance" skill, (implying "hard to learn"). You got resistance building faster than you can pump it out!
Most adults don't like to be told what to do. And that applies even more so to recreation activities. We would like to think we do it for fun "because we want to do it"! As soon as it becomes "neccessary", large number of people actually turn away to go do something else instead. Really, how many wants to do something in one's spare time because one "has to"? The list of "need to do" on my weekend are long, laundry, shopping, etc. Why add rolling to it???
I'm glad I wasn't told I need to learn to roll before (fill in the blank). I'm glad I happen to want to try it after paddling only ONCE (busy emptying the boat after a flip while others continued to have fun surfing a hole)! And the ease of it led to more...
I try to encourage people to learn to roll for the fun of it. The extra safety margin would just come as a by-product. I don't discourage people from paddling by insisting they "MUST" learn to roll. (And I'm talking about whitewater here) Sooner or later, usually pretty soon, anyone who paddle frequently would want to learn to roll just for the heck of it anyway. Mission accomplished.
No, I don't believe one "need" to learn to roll to paddle safely. Yes, I totally agree common sense is most important for safety. Still, rolling is sooo much fun (or at least a fun challenge)! And common sense would say any one who hasn't should at least give it a try.
rooky …
beginner. rooky. novice. pre-paddler. 
Great points!
What stood out to me in you post was you mention of seeing others play while you worked pumping out!
What you are exposed to (or seek out) has a lot to do with how you perceive these things. People who know and see rollers in action are a LOT more likely to see it as fun, or at least as a huge advantage.
I did not know Jim was a wagering man
– Last Updated: Sep-13-05 9:45 PM EST –
But Jim, if you ever get over your phobia of cooler waters, I would be happy to take you in out in (gray)whale infested waters out of San Diego.
I agree with all points.
Do it for fun…or not.
My fears have subsided
– Last Updated: Sep-14-05 9:03 AM EST –
A close call in a bad storm at sea on a 30 footer with two Cuban companions in 1985 off the Bimini coast left me with a bad taste for big water. 20 years of passing time in small boats around the keys and a couple of years of coastal paddling have helped a lot. I proactively faced my fear, I didn't run from it.
My personal issues regarding big water do have relavancy here for beginners. I don't have an aversion to rolling, I have a well founded respect for being in big water. So I don't go there. Consequently, I don't need a roll.
Why haven't I tried one yet? Maybe for the same reason many do not; water up the nose, water in the ears, spent valuable energy and time..when all I really want to do is have apeaceful trip in an attractive environment while getting some exercise and photo opps. I am a good swimmer and have always loved the water. When I want to swim, I swim. When I want to paddle, I paddle. Maybe someday I'll combine the two and start rolling.
As for re-entry, that is just too easy...with or without the paddle float. If you have the energy, there are no great skills involved there.
Remountint the QCC was a bit dodgy and at first took a few tries. Getting back into the Pygmy Tern is easy enough even for a one legged paddler. I know someone who tells me he can climb out onto the deck of his Tern, grab a drink from the forward hatch and return to the cockpit. What you paddle, when you paddle, why you paddle and where you paddle are more relevant factors than how you paddle.
If I ever see an animal
as big as a grey whale coming up near my kayak, I will instantly swamp my boat with my own pooh.
A surprised manatee rose from the 8 foot deep creek bed under me one early morning. That gave me a double dose of adrenilin.
Sea mammals don’t really concern me too much. But you people who paddle in California have some really big toothed fish to consider as well as killing cold water temps each time you go out.
Hey Greyak
I followed your suggestion and paddled away. I would recommend you do the same. I think this tread went waaaay too far.
If somebody want to believe common sense and skills are two separate things… fine, why wasting more time?
I had to reach 40 to be called an elitist paddler, there is always something new to learn in life
So true!
"What you are exposed to (or seek out) has a lot to do with how you perceive these things. "
Come to think of it, there’s more than just rolling. I always thought of kayaking being staying above the water (and roll up after a flip). But then in a gathering, I saw people padding upsidedown!!! (you take a deep breath, flip over, stick your paddle up in the air, cross over the bottom of the boat, which is now above water, and paddle away!). It looks hilarious. Totally useless as a skill. But then so is kayaking as a survival skill in the morden world anyway. We only do it because it’s FUN.
A lot of times, we live with all these preconceptions and never question them, until we are exposed to something entirely countering the norm. And the light bulb comes on! Hey, there’re OTHER ways to do things. And for that matter, live one’s life too!
I consider myself lucky to have such varied exposure. But others pointed out it’s because I look for such things. That I have an open mind. I’ll take the compliment.
common sense is THE main skill
not the only one. And it is the only one that can replace the others.
“Totally useless as a skill”
– Last Updated: Sep-14-05 2:23 PM EST –
Paddling upside down may indeed be useless to us as paddlers doing it for recreation, but the Greenlanders have no useless skills.
The variety of maneuvers they've developed are needed to deal with a very wide range of complications involved with paddling in cold and often rough waters and hunting large sea mammals. Entanglements, injuries, and broken equipment are not uncommon. Any of these may prevent a standard roll, and exits are out of the question.
It is not too hard to imagine situations (entangled - injured - torn/crushed boat) where it might not be possible to fully/continuously right the qajaq - and a wet exit means swift death - and it being useful to paddle inverted a short distance to a chunk of ice where you could right yourself and free yourself/haul out. Maybe a very slim chance of that ever happening - and even slimmer chance of surviving it - but at least they do have dozens of options to try.
We may not be under those extreme conditions - but things can still go wrong. Still good to have options. Complacency kills.
You should have seen our "swim with your paddle" races a few weeks ago. Several heats using a different stroke each time. Hilarious to see - and also appears quite useless to observers - but it's a very useful thing to practice.
Slammed
Told y’all that I’d get slammed. I practice re-entry without a paddle float or even strapping the paddle on. My Captiva has a low enough profile to make re-entry fairly easy.
Nobody has yet answered the question about rolling a loaded touring kayak.
Of course you roll whitewater kayaks. That wasn’t the issue.
Does anyone remember Walt Blackadar? He was considered the father of whitewater kayaking. I come from his part of the country. His son, Bob, played on my softball team. I’m well aware of the need to master the roll in whitewater and I’m well aware of the dangers of hitting rocks while in whitewater while rolling. That’s why I didn’t want to learn. That plus the fact that river kayakers can’t carry their own gear. Which is why they’re called river magots. I became one of the first people to use a SOT touring kayak for extended whitewater trips because I wanted the thrill of whitewater without the need of a crowd.
My instructors could both do somesaults in their kayaks. Rolling was and probably still is a way of life for them. I just passed on info.
Not one person has made the case that the roll is essential to enjoying touring in a kayak. Sure it can be fun just like mountain climbing can be fun. That doesn’t mean you have to learn how to climb in order to hike the mountains. That’s my point.
I read Sea Kayak magazine for two years before I felt it didn’t offer much more for me to learn from it. At no time did I read of someone getting in trouble due to the lack of a roll. Making stupid mistakes seemed to be the big killer. Not paying attention to weather forecasts, improper dress, or just the lack of a compass seem to be more of a hazard. Remember seeing on the news where two kayakers had to be rescued because they failed to secure their kayaks against the tide. That can kill if you don’t watch out.
My first kayak was a Seda Tango. Tell me how to roll that. Divorced the wife and the kayak. Found them both to be to much of a hassle.
You NEED To Read…
“Nobody has yet answered the question about rolling a loaded touring kayak.”
That was answered by several folks already. I’ll answer it again. A properly loaded kayak is EASIER to roll than a non loaded (high volume) kayak.
As you are so wont to say: “Some people are so dumb.”
sing
At least 3 answered about loaded NM
Too much hassle
I can think of some reasons your wife must be very happy you got divorced…
Announcing on this board
that you divorced your wife cause she was too much of a hassle is just your style.
Straw man argument
No one said rolling was “essential”. No one said it was a “required” skill.
Nor did any one truly “slam” you.
Again, many people live long and happy lives without rolling. That’s no reason not to try to get a roll.
Also, the point of bringing up WW experience is that it supports the fact that a roll: can be a “basic” skill, is the most effective self-rescue technique; and is usable in “extreme” circumstances.
If the boat is rollable, it’s not that hard to learn to roll. Learning to roll does not mean you can’t or shouldn’t learn other methods.
Not much shark action and 60+deg
waters off San Diego. Usually not very rough either.