and now for something completely
different…
“Fool” (rhymes with “Pool”! - )
– Last Updated: Sep-16-05 2:43 PM EST –
Yeah - said "fool" in an obviously less than serious part of the post. Whatever.
I would enjoy the banter more if you made decent/serious points (but then we probably wouldn't disagree in the first place) and didn't use your limited understanding of practice/play to discourage others from learning basic techniques - simply because you fail to see the obvious benefits and avoid it.
"Keep a weather eye."
You and Paul should paddle sometime - you're both early AM guys. Paul catches on really fast on paddling stuff and some might rub off on you.
BTW - While I may often be a bit of a pedant (originally meaning male school teacher), the word "pedantic" doesn't fit the views I've expressed in this thread. Yours is clearly the narrow/unimaginative/pedestrian view here. Your attitude toward rescue and rolling reminds me of "Sam I Am" from the Dr. Seuss classic "Green Eggs and Ham."
Something like this:
I do not like to practice that
I do not like to wet my hat
I will not flip it upside down
I fear that I might really drown
I will not give it any time
I will not spend a single dime
I simple do not see the need
So your advice I will not heed
Try it - you just might like it. Until then, you're talking nonsense.
Well here is to hoping anyway
Here’s to not knowing how to rescue yourself…I’ve pulled THREE sea kayaks out of teh ocean this year alone…because paddlers didn’t know what to do.
To the half a dozen hours you may spend on the water on a weekend in mild conditions with no wind…hmm…I dont know much about that…there is no such thing as no wind here… Rescues are as important as the kayak itself…
The weakest part of any boat is the paddler…
Jim.
Learn to rescue or don’t…
I’ll have nothing to do with that mentality.
Simplified
If doing wet exits/reentries/rescues is too much work for some - THOSE people shouldn’t be in sea kayaks.
Letting them think their OK out there without at least these minimal skills would be pretty irresponsible. I’m not saying “required” as in mandatory/enforced, I’m saying it as in it should be understood to be a fundamental part of the deal.
Just my opinion - but I really think it’s not a lot to expect - and should be promoted as a fundamental skill. If you can’t get in and out from land AND water - do you belong there?
I know many can’t - and some don’t even see the problem - and that’s what concerns me.
lol, classic!
great seuss-ian rhymes!
great line!
“The weakest part of any boat is the paddler”
I’ll have to steal that line from you sirius!
Printed into corners
I notice the two sides are getting more and more extreem as the thread progress…
round 1:
A: “rolling isn’t neccessary, re-entry is important”
B: “rolling is fun and re-entry needs refresher”
round 2:
A: “re-entry is easy, pratice is boring”
B: “No pratice, no skill, shouldn’t paddle SINK”
round 3:
A: “capsize is rare, re-entry is easy”
B: “no re-entry skill, no paddle”
round 4:
A: “??? did anyone said re-entry is not needed??? Well, so what? Water is warm, swim to shore”
B: “you’re an idiot”
Both sides are being painted into their respective corners and started to defend positions at the extreem just for the heck of it…
by all means schziopak
I explain to my clients, who are often 100% novice, to enlighten them as to the sport, and trying to instill how important it is to become a well rounded kayaker…
There are more skills involved in kayaking then just your strokes…same as their is more to driving a car then simply starting it and steering it.
jim.
L It took you 130 posts…
… to figure that out? L
I prefer the grey area/middle ground in reality - but more polarized points can stand in clearer relief for discussion purposes.
And yet another view
I paddle in the ten thousand island area (Florida coastal gulf)which is where I do most of my winter touring/camping trips. If I were to roll my kayak there I would end up with a severe concusion due to the shallow conditions and numerous oyter bars. Or, would end up with mud in my teeth. The water is warm but the winter paddling brings small craft advisory conditions every weekend in our winter season.
Since rolling is not something I practice for paddling this area, I do practice self rescues, group rescues every chance I get. I also have become pretty good at keeping myself upright in the boat with good bracing techniques in rough water.
What are your opinions for someone such as myself, do you think I should still develop a roll? Personally, I don’t feel I need to but you may provide another viewpoint.
Now, I have started exploring other paddling areas around the country and have become enamored with LAKE SUPERIOR. In order to paddle there again I will be required to do some serious work at taking classes and getting some better skills in order to paddle this area next summer. I did one trip two years ago and felt very uncomfortable with my skill level in those cold waters. Not that the conditions were horrible (although they could be) but I kept thinking…what if I capsized in these cold deep waters? What if the weather was so bad that I could not get in the boat? Even though I was with a guided group, when things get bad it’s everyone for themselves.
So, is the answer related to where one paddles and worst case scenario for that area? Or is rolling really necessary for every kayaker?
Lastly, I don’t play in weather beyond my physical skill level (sustained wind at 30 mph). I monitor the weather every day (twice a day) when on an extended trip. I also have very good knowledge of our winter weather patterns and can tell by wind change direction when fronts are coming through.
reason to roll…
I personally find rolling itself to be rewarding and enjoyable. I definitely acknowledge that there are many situations where a roll is unnecessary or not even practical. Of course you stated you practiced reentries. If you can do an in water reentry, that’s more than deep enough to roll. You can only not roll in water that is less than knee deep. With that said, oyster beds, etc are real concerns.
Now why should someone who paddles in conditions which do not require rolls practice rolling? The primary reason is that it enables you to learn how to effectively brace so that you never have to roll. Show me a person who cannot roll, and I’ll show you a person who cannot brace. There is very little chance that you can develop a true reflexive deep brace without the ability to roll (since the roll is simply a variation of a brace). You said you paddle in small craft advisory conditions and I suspect a good brace would come in handy in those situations. As for Superior… the lake is the boss. It’s a spectacular place to paddle but it needs to be treated with the proper respect and kudos to you for considering working on skills prior to paddling there.
good point
to consider and yes, I do want to expand my skill level so I could enjoy paddling in more demanding areas and feel a bit more confident.
Small Craft in area I paddle with shallow water produces a condition similar to rolling surf. Large waves/swells are not an issue for us unless you go further out into the Gulf.
need vs. want
You may wish to have a change of attitude. Instead of focus on if rolling is NEEDED. Ask instead if you WANT to roll.
As schizopak had pointed out, there’re benefit of rolling that’s got nothing to do with rolling UP. Bracing and edging are typically half-hearted for those who never bother to roll. Long before I actually got a reliable roll, I quickly learn to edge and brace as second nature.
I happen to just like doing this “manuvers”. I think if kayaking isn’t so technical, I might not even spend as much time doing it! I really enjoy trying different moves and seeing my boat doing amazing things on water. So to me, rolling isn’t a NEED but rather a WANT. I sometimes wonder if one day I “master” every kind of move (which I doubt is possible), I might get bored and need to move on to something like rock climbing! ;o)
Obviously, your paddling environment at home doesn’t NEED rolling as a rescue skill. So if you don’t want, you don’t need to learn to roll. On the other hand, as you yourself noticed, paddling in Lake Superior makes you aprehensive. Well, you will probably feel better with a roll. Do you really NEED to paddle in Lake Superior in the first place? You really don’t NEED to, do you? So, if you really WANT to paddle in Superior, I bet you WANT to roll too. ;o)
WW kayakers
– Last Updated: Sep-16-05 6:12 PM EST –
WW kayakers manage to roll in quite shallow water.
beachcamper: some of what you are wondering about was addressed in earlier posts.
Rolling isn't "necessary" but there's no reason not to try to get a roll.
Greyack
Perhaps you should type less and paddle more and you won’t be an “intermediate at best” paddler or beginner roller. Just an observation. My experience in kayaking over the last twenty years as an instructor / guide / product tester, etc., is that skill and strong opinions are often inversely proportioned. You don’t have to win every thread battle, or have the last word.
It’s not work for me
I enjoy practicing all aspects of kayaking. I’m not really interested in what “99% of the people” in this world would do… most of them are overweight, out of shape, inactive and would never get in a non-powered boat anyway.
I find myself to be somewhat of a misfit in this life, so if practicing skills makes me one of the “elite”, so be it. I think I’ll get a black beret to wear when I go paddling from now on 