The biggest mistake is…
– Last Updated: Sep-16-05 10:56 AM EST –
...answering these stupid trolls from Pahsimeroi. I suspect that his instructors told him that learning to roll was a waste of time simply to get rid of him.
hallelujah!!!
can I get an Amen!!!
Amen
I actually found the thread enjoyable, however, I am genetically programmed to respond to this type of exclamation.
Lou Alleluia
And not everybody has to
– Last Updated: Sep-15-05 3:11 PM EST –
That's the magic phrase. You got it. This is a wide open sport/activity for just about anyone but the most feeble minded or physically impaired. (Is there anyone on this thread who cannot master a re-mount in the conditions they choose to paddle in?)
It is not a technically demanding activity regardless of what you are paddling. It is a forgiving sport with a wide margin for error when common sense is used. Driving a motorcycle or even a car is much more risky. And while it is gratifying to talk amongst each other about every little nuance of advancement in skills, let's be careful while patting each other on the back not to chase off newbies with morose warnings about steep learning curves and the dire effects of not learning every skill there is.
for crying out loud,
how many times do you have to “practice” climbing back into your kayak so that you won’t forget how? Half a dozen times ought to be enough for good.
As a trusty Shellback, I hereby…
… beseech the mighty Lord of the Deep - Neptunus Rex - to visit upon this fool a circumstance worthy of testing his vast reserves of common sense! L
Gee, I guess I should have just done those first couple rolls and left it at that!
“…won’t forget how?” What a crock! It ain’t about memory - it’s about proficiency, redundancy, and reliability. Being able to do these things automatically - and in less than ideal circumstances (when else would you need them?).
There is no substitute for practice, and no good reason not to do it or to have several options. Without these - you’re only deluding yourself and taking unnecessary risks (no matter how small you perceive them to be).
You are not alone. I’m sure there are many who have only done a couple exits and recoveries and feel they’re good to go too. The difference is they don’t see that as something to publicly defend.
You have to be 100% trolling at this point. No one in their right mind could possibly be serious about the point you made. Oops! Sorry! I accidentally confused you with someone with the ability to reason.
As someone who
has safety skills that keep me alive in my occupation at times, I can say there is no such thing as practicing them too much, only not practicing them enough. Whether it’s making sure I’m proficient at doffing my Scott Pack and passing it through small spaces for Confined Space Entries, or practicing buddy breathing for recreational scuba diving, or roling my SOT with thigh straps even though I don’t really have to. I never think of it as a waste of time. I like knowing I can roll a Yak Board, which in some ways is tougher than rolling a sea kayak, because it’s wider and meant to be more stable. Plus, it keeps me ready to do it for my all too infrequent trips to Victoria BC. Practice often. It’s useful and fun.
It isn’t about “remembering how”
– Last Updated: Sep-15-05 8:54 PM EST –
You polliwog! It's about being able to do it INSTINCTIVELY without having to think through it. If you ever find yourself in a life-threatening situation, you will be AMAZED at how your thinking mind freezes and your brain shifts into instinctive reaction mode. It is vital that you have self rescue information stored at that more basic level. This can only be accomplished by intensive repetition and regular practice.
Observe how the military trains their people to perform under life-threatening pressure. Constant repetition! Drills Drills Drills! Know your weapon so well that you can disassemble/reassemble it blindfolded.
They know what they're doing.
Not thst I agree with Jim on other thing
but your guys are making this “praticing to save your life” sound like WORK!
And you’re trying to convince people to do it on their limited spare time? Every way I look at it, it doesn’t sound like FUN. And it doesn’t sound like the kind of thing 99% of the people would be willing to spend the time to do it regularly. There’s bills to pay, lawns to mow, leaves to rake… Praticing climbing back into the kayak and pumping out is about as fun as fixing a leaky drain!
No wonder there’s so much resistance to learning ANY kind of safety drills. It sounds boring, it’s just work, not play. We work all week so we come to the weekend. Do I want to be doing some more boring “work” instead of having fun just paddling? It maybe a neccessary evil. But then, maybe I should take up rock climbing instead. At least there, the “pratice” are the sport itself. Sounds a lot more fun.
I confess I only pratice rolling purposely. THAT, is fun. And for the few occasion I got so tired that I can’t roll up any more, I ended up having to “pratice” a re-entry anyway. But no, I can’t motivate myself into doing re-entry “pratice”. There’s only so much one can manage to do in the limited time we call “ours”. By god I’ll use it to have fun, even if it means I may die from it due to the lack of those boring “pratices”!
Rant over.
That 99% of the people shouldn’t kayak
How’s that for a firebomb? L
“Practicing climbing back into the kayak and pumping out is about as fun as fixing a leaky drain!”
Yeah, no argument there, but that’s a great reason to learn how to roll. It was a BIG part of my motivation. I knew after my first paddle float rescue (super easy as it was) that there had to be a better way.
Some of it can seem like work - but I’ll take playing around in the water over just about any other work I can think of! Play’s the way!
By the time you can and do roll regularly - and do them for fun - you’re probably proficient enough at other reentries to go to doing them only infrequently.
I have a very reliable roll now - and on both sides - but consider myself to have a LONG way to go as far as skills go. My roll is not combat tested, I have not done a lot of assisted rescues, etc.
I find it fun always knowing there’s something more to try. Always a beginner, exploring through play.
Practice
I practice paddle float re-entries only occationally now. But, there is no pumping using the method I favor. I lift the bow of the boat up and let the cockpit drain prior to righting the boat. This is easy and eliminates the need to use a pump.
I practice a wet re-entry and roll more often than a paddle float re-entry. I am playing with doing a very deep high brace following the roll to empty some of the water from the cockpit so there is less to pump. I also carry a small bailer which is easier to handle one handed for me.
As with most responding here I work more often on prefecting my combat roll.
Happy Paddling,
Mark
Can we please kill this thread?
I went out yesterday afternoon and did about 25 rolls. the blade skimming across the water, me being in position and executing a hip snap and marginal pressure on the blade and keeping my head down all worked particularly well yesterday…There is a pleasure in executing something well and it becomes fun.
The first time you got on skates or a bicycle was not fun…you were extremely cautious and worried more about faling down and hurting yourself and keeping your balance than becoming proficient.
My first times attempting to roll were not fun and are documented here somewheres. But doing wet exits and paddle float re-entries while not unpleasant in themselves, necessitiated spending many minutes pumping water out of a cockpit that I really detested doing…so for me, the main motivations for learning to roll were as follows:
- I wouldn’t have to pump much out of the boat and would not have to leave the boat if I capsized.
- I quit worrying so much about my balance and let my “monkey brain” as lallelulia speaks so fondly of, worry about my balance in the boat and as such, have been able to lean over much farther executing tighter turns and corrections without the innate fear of capsizing and having to spend 10 minutes pumping out a boat.(did I mention I really hate that?)
- I have accepted unequivocably that this is a wet sport and chances are that sometime you will get wet…so I don’t worry about getting in the water anymore…(it is amazing how many people feel that they don’t want to get wet but still want to kayak or canoe)
- Yes it does impress the girls and garners interest from the lifeguards at the beach.
There is a confidence level that is achieved when you are able to roll. I think it is coupled with a more innate acceptance of the risks involved in kayaking as it does accustom you to being under the water in an environment we are not meant to survive in. Being able to somewhat control that environment by using technique and equipment reduces panic levels and certainly increases your chances for survival.
rolling is fun! wet exits and re-entries are fun. pumping out water sucks.
Now can this thread die please? I am quite sure Pash and crowd are very proud of their 100+ thread.
A recent experience
– Last Updated: Sep-16-05 8:53 AM EST –
As some of you may recall, I've been focusing on getting a roll for some time now. A few weeks ago, I had to wet exit and do a paddle float re-entry to get back in (well, I didn't have to, but it was practice) and it seemed much harder than the last time I tried it (which was a while ago). I don't know if it was the Crossfire I was using in pool class, or the fact that I had no PFD on in the pool, but it taught me that if I haven't practiced something recently, I shouldn't think it will be easy to do it.
Lou
Abso-friggin-luely!!!
Limited time and enegy is what I am talking about. I devote (and I mean DEVOTE) a half a dozen hours every weekend to kayaking. I paddle my ass off non stop then pack up and go home to all those things abc mentioned.
The elitst shows his true colors
– Last Updated: Sep-16-05 10:04 AM EST –
Greyak.....I never doubted your elitist attitude and I have a pretty good idea of the pschycological reason behind it. It is helping you deal with a deflated ego so it has some value for you. It's value for me is that it gives me something to juxtapose against my own more laid back approach. However, I will not concede the point about practicing a re-entry. It is not much different than practicing mounting a bike. In my paddling conditions, only extreme fatigue wopuld keep me in the water after a spill.
Jim,
I don’t know you at all having just met you that one day at Oleta as you were taking your beautiful wooden boat out but I did spend some time with Greyak on several different occasions. I do not understand the vitriolic comments from you about Greyak but suspect it is personal and not necessarily for everyone’s consumption IMO. He does not appear to have either an elitist attitude or is compensating for any inferiority or ego issues. I find him to be very down to earth, extremely knowledgeable, and yes his confidence comes from knowledge, not conjecture. I have met few people who are as varied in their knowledge base as he is in this sport and as such he does have the right to make opinions that should be listened to. He has his preferences as you do.
BTW…I am going to e-mail you shortly.
Paul
Nah
"That 99% of the people shouldn’t kayak
How’s that for a firebomb? L"
I don’t see that as a firebomb. It’s rather a dud. There’re 2 main problem with that:
- The great majority of the forum members are counting on more people taking up kayaking and driving down all kayak prices. Turning 99% of them away is heading the wrong direction.
- Those 99% people who “shouldn’t” are going to kayak anyway. But they’re going to get rec boats and SOT so they have a ready excuse NOT to have to learn any kind of rescue. Leaving the touring kayak community high and dry (or I should say low and wet ;o) )
Elitist attitude some times works in keeping something to the elit. That is, if that’s what you want it to remain.
Look again, Paul
I was responding to a post of his where he calls me a fool. I take no offense to his remarks and I am pretty sure he doesn’t take offense to mine either. I respect his dedication to the sport but not his pedantic attitude.
This is a routine. First I will make my opinion known about some aspect of kayaking, then he, and many times, others as well, will begin dragging the thread into a personal mud slinging contest. It happens often with nearly everyone here. It’s mostly good natured, as far as I can tell, or I wouldn’t waste time here. Sometimes it is even amusing. Glean what you can from the more serious posts and sit back and chuckle at the rest of it.
Clarification/expansion
99% shouldn’t “Sea Kayak” (and keep in mind my perspective is that of a solo touring paddler who thinks that even groups should consist of independent solo paddlers).
Yes, just about anyone can paddle (something/somewhere) and have fun doing it. Plenty of options - something for everyone.
That doesn’t mean we need to encourage anyone to paddle anything anywhere without appropriate basic skills because they want to be on the water - but don’t want to actually learn to kayak. They can do what they want regardless of my opinion - but I also have the right to think they’re idiots for trusting to luck when they don’t have to - and for missing out on the better paddling experience some skill development brings.
How many people are paddling SINKS who won’t do wet exits? How many can’t get back in on their own at all? In all conditions they paddle in? How many SOT drivers haven’t tested their remounts in conditions they paddle in? Paul hit it on the head when he mentioned paddlers who don’t even want to get wet.
Most of us have come across paddlers like this. I’m sure all shops/liveries/guides have. This is the downside of an “it’s all good” - and “I don’t need or have time for all that stuff” attitudes. This is what I have a problem with.
Jim is only out on warm waters on mild days and so feels he doesn’t need to use any of his time for rescue practice. Seems reasonable on the surface (pun intended), though it’s also true that he’s out on busy Biscayne Bay and the Atlantic - alone - with only limited self rescue options - that he assumes will work but doesn’t test. Common sense?
Nothing elitist or uptight about it. As an intermediate at best paddler - and a beginning roller - I hardly posses any “elite” status or opinions. I just have an open and curious attitude toward the full range of what paddling has to offer and an appreciation for what I have gained from my limited work on these things so far.
encourage? discourage?
“99% shouldn’t “Sea Kayak”
Yes, just about anyone can paddle”
But they do anyway, and I mean sea kayaks!
On the one hand, a lot of shops are complaining SOT and rec boats sold at “sporting good stores” are killing the “real” kayak business. The irony is, a lot of people, once they’ve been in a touring kayak, want one. It’s fast, it’s a lot more stable than it looks, and that’s fun.
“That doesn’t mean we need to encourage anyone to paddle anything anywhere without appropriate basic skills because they want to be on the water - but don’t want to actually learn to kayak.”
Sure, we don’t NEED to encourage them to paddle a touring kayak. But should we DISCOURAGE them, by insising they first learn re-entry AND then learn to roll? And call them idiot if they resist? More importantly, WILL IT EVEN WORK???
Well, a lot of those “idiots” are paddling small SINKs without rescue skill. Because they simply don’t believe you, or because your proposed “requirement” are too much WORK. Some might got turned off from paddling a touring boat, which suits you just fine. But many others will simply go away and paddle by themselves because they know they will be criticised by “the community”.