Rolls - why so many types?

Plank roller vs log roller:
The stronger the primary and secondary stability, the more it flops over. A stable hull that has strong resistance to heeling rolls more plank-like. A hull that is really loose side-to-side, a hull that lacks that reserve buoyancy on the sides that leads to stability , rolls like a log. It’s all varying degrees between different hulls.
In general, that same feeling of support keeping your boat from tipping upside-down, will be there for tipping it rightside-up.
What a person prefers depends a little bit. Having that little bit of a flop from upside down to rightside up can be very helpful in identifying that you’ve completed the roll. Mind you, there doesn’t have to be any actual “flop”. Just that feeling of passing over a point where you feel the boat wanting to sit back upright again. That secondary will actually help to hold you upright as you bring your body back over the kayak.
Something like my P&H Sirius, for me anyway, I don’t really feel secondary stability edging the kayak, although I know it’s there. But there’s no feeling of resistance to edging. When I roll, there isn’t that upright position with stability resistance on either side of me. Something like my CD Solstice GTS feels very stable , with a fairly solid feeling of resistance to edging. It’s still very easy to roll, but that resistance builds as you approach the capsize moment, and once it crosses over, that same force is going the other way. So if you’re upside down, it’s harder to get it past that moment to come back upright, but once you do, the hull really wants to go that way, so it feels helpful once you get past it. So in the Solstice GTS, it may take a little more to get past the hump, but you will be past that hump more quickly and with less rotation than you will reach a stable position rolling the Sirius.
An egg would be a good analogy. You can roll it effortlessly on its side, where volume distribution doesn’t change. But if you try to roll it oblong, it takes a good amount of force to raise it up, and then it forcefully rolls down the other direction. This might paint a better picture than plank vs log. It’s just reserve volume distribution, and how that relates to which direction the hull wants to rotate at differing degrees of heel. It can’t always be identified entirely by overall dimensions, but more by specific volume distribution.

@Rex said:
Flatpick used food terms. Hot dog shaped (round) hulls roll smoothly. Hamburger shapes (flat bottom) plop. Hot dogs are better to learn in for most of us.

I’ll have to remember this analogy - seems quite good. Who would have thunk that Steve/Flatpick knew his stuff…

Thanks for the wonderful analogies! Current boat: hard chines, shallow v. It sure isn’t a hamburger plank when I’m trying to get on the back deck as it rolls like a log when I try.

Right-side up it goes on edge easily and will stay there but I’ve never gone past the point of no return. Have come close a few times but a quick weight shift saved me. No idea if it will be that helpful upside down with me in the cockpit.

@Rex-Kudzu (glad to know who you are now) - no pool classes offered here plus pool’s not very large. Two forward strokes and I’m dodging the opposite wall. But it’s liquid and warmer than Lake Michigan (now 32F). Wouldn’t send the winter weather we’re having anywhere but to Hades. I’d run away from home but the roads are too bad.

Rookie, the best way to learn to roll a kayak is to take a roll class, or to do some pool sessions with an experienced kayaker. Although not all experienced kayakers are good at teaching beginners how to roll. You can learn a lot by viewing pictures and video taken from underwater of kayakers rolling kayaks, and by viewing video of kayakers lying on their sides and sculling. And you can learn to use a hip snap to roll yourself upright, and you can learn the advantages of lying on the back deck of your kayak, by tying a rope to a diving board, flipping over upside down, and using the rope to right yourself. As soon as you can roll successfully at least part of the time, start working on bracing and sculling. If you tip over while working on those skills, you can use the opportunity to practice rolling. The paddle control you develop by learning how to scull will help you roll, and learning how to pop yourself upright from a deep scull will help you roll.

Buy a nose plug before you start trying to learn to roll. It will make your pool sessions way more fun. filling your sinuses with water is not enjoyable.

@pmmpete

Well, I’ve got a couple of nose plugs in my shopping cart for a start.

Visualized entering the pool area with my boat and bondage material. That might raise some eyebrows.

The diving board there is low; I recall having to duck around it a couple of times. But even if it was higher, I have to question what I’d learn from using my arms to right my boat, other than posible bad habits. Also can’t figure out what happens to the paddle if I’m using both hands to pull myself up. Maybe I’m doing it all wrong in my head?

Sculling is fun; one of my favorite strokes is a sculling draw. I’d like to play with a paddle float on one end, sculling while the boat’s on a deep edge and then without the float.

Definitely plan to take lessons but that has to wait until water softens. I know some excellent paddlers, but they race surfskis.

Hey, Rookie, in addition to a nose plug, wear something warmer than a bathing suit. A wetsuit, even just a shorty 2mm, plus a neoprene cap and booties will allow you to be TENACIOUS about fully using your pool time. You can expect to spend more time IN the water than someone who already has been rolling more successfully than not. Wearing a wetsuit will prevent chilliness from distracting you. Even a pool kept at 82 degrees is considerably lower than 98.6.

Good luck. Given what you have posted about your diligence in working to become a better paddler, I bet you will get your roll.

@Rookie said:

Well, I’ve got a couple of nose plugs in my shopping cart for a start.

Excellent idea! I started out being all “macho” and going with the motto “I’m not going to have one when I capsize so I’ll learn without”. When I started using one I became much more relaxed while hanging upside down and my sinuses NOT quickly filling with water. Since we’re on the subject, goggles or a mask can help you see what’s going on with your paddle better than just opening your eyes - which can be nasty in chlorinated pools anyway.

The diving board there is low; I recall having to duck around it a couple of times. But even if it was higher, I have to question what I’d learn from using my arms to right my boat, other than posible bad habits. Also can’t figure out what happens to the paddle if I’m using both hands to pull myself up. Maybe I’m doing it all wrong in my head?

Spacial orientation is one thing you’ll start to figure out. Being upside down in a boat is incredibly disorienting, even after some practice. Having something nearby that you always know will right you when you need UP is another thing that helps you to relax while learning.

I can also highly recommend using an inflatable paddle float. There’s enough buoyancy when held out to the side of your boat to get your head above water, and with a hip snap you can completely right the boat (or maybe just sit up depending on your centre of gravity). As you get better you can inflate it less and less so you’re relying on your body motion more than the buoyancy of the float. I used to clip it to my tow belt (on a short lead) when practicing early on so I had a way to get back up without leaving the boat when I didn’t make it up.

Keep your shoulders safe! It’s easy to overextend when you’re pulling yourself up using training aids.

P.S. - Are you getting this crazy wind too? Just for a laugh I checked out the marine report for Lake Superior and was rewarded with a forecast for 50 kt winds and 3-5 metre waves to the northeast overnight. Yes, that’s about 9-15 feet! No wonder they call it an inland sea. It makes the 2-3 metre forecast for Georgian Bay look tiny by comparison.

@Rookie said:

Visualized entering the pool area with my boat and bondage material. That might raise some eyebrows.

The diving board there is low; I recall having to duck around it a couple of times. But even if it was higher, I have to question what I’d learn from using my arms to right my boat, other than posible bad habits. Also can’t figure out what happens to the paddle if I’m using both hands to pull myself up. Maybe I’m doing it all wrong in my head?

Here’s what you can learn by tying a rope to a diving board, tossing away your paddle, and going over upside down while hanging onto the rope:

  1. It’s much easier to right yourself with the rope when your shoulders are on the back deck than it is when your body is sticking out of the kayak at right angles, because when your shoulders are on the back deck, your kayak rolls easily, like a log.

  2. That you can swivel your hips (i.e. do a hip snap) to move your kayak from being on top of your hips to being underneath your hips. If you go to YouTube and do a search for “kayak hip snap,” you’ll find a number of videos with information about learning to do a hip snap. For example, see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hho9WJf31rU . Your objective when righting yourself with the assistance of a rope is to learn to right yourself with as little tension on the rope as possible by laying on the back deck and/or doing a vigorous hip snap. If the diving boards in your pool are too low, you can use the nose of another kayak or the side of the pool rather than a rope to practice a hip snap.

Then, you can switch to righting yourself with the assistance of a float on your paddle. And finally, you can graduate to using your paddle without a float.

@Rookie
I also bring goggles, because the chlorine in the pool water does a job on my eyes if I am having a session with a high rate of failures. Like probably when I get serious about recovering my left side this spring in the pool, I expect there will be more time in the water crossing over to the right side For that purpose I use proper diving goggles with a vented nose cover, because with a small face the nose plugs and a regular Dick’s set of goggles run into each other. Diving goggles have an adult small size that is quite comfortable. But they do sink, if you go that way get a float onto them. Clear goggles are not fun to find on the bottom of a pool.

If there is a recommendation to add a helmet, sometimes there is, the only helmet I have found that will not play with those goggles is my Sweet helmet. My WRS helmet will accommodate the adult small diving goggles and a thin neoprene hood.

As to the aids, I personally think you are not making a good use of time worrying about that. Each instructor will have aids that they may use, and a good one will find the ones that work best to help you learn the motion without becoming a crucial part of the roll themselves. Just get there and work with what happens. You may find that someone’s first idea is not a good one for you. Honestly, I likely would have made better progress if I had not even had a paddle in my hands until I could make 2 out of 3 with a hand roll, and/or had an instructor who incorporated the static brace as an intermediate step. Everyone is different.

FWIW, another way to think of a roll is that it is a scull in a single stroke. If you already like sculling and are handy at it, you may want to spend more time thinking about that than what object to hang onto while you find the hip action.

I just close my eyes when I roll.

@Celia said:
FWIW, another way to think of a roll is that it is a scull in a single stroke. If you already like sculling and are handy at it, you may want to spend more time thinking about that than what object to hang onto while you find the hip action.

That’s a real good idea. Rookie, here’s how you could develop a roll from your sculling skills:

  1. Work on your scull until you can scull with your shoulder and the side of your head in the water, and then pop upright.

  2. Scull on your side, stop sculling and let your head and shoulders sink under water a bit, and then resume sculling to bring your head and shoulders back to the surface.

  3. Turn over your kayak and hang upside down. Start sculling until you come to the surface, and then pop upright.

  4. Turn over your kayak and hang upside down. Then lean forward, slice your paddle forward and up to the surface of the water, and bring yourself upright with one scull stroke towards the stern of your kayak. That is a roll.

  5. Check out YouTube videos of the sweep roll and the C-to-C roll, and work on your roll technique.

@pikabike. Have a full Farmer Jane wetsuit from my pre-drysuit days so that will work for the pool. No neoprene cap, though. Do they come in different weights? How are they sized?

@celia, I do have swim goggles which I used the last time I was upside down in my boat: 2015 at the pool. My main recollection is hitting my head on the bottom of the pool because my sprayskirt scared me (now fixed) and I used a lot of force with my feet. It was more like a catapult exit. Didn’t attempt wet exits last year although I did practice lots of exits and re-entries in the lake when I got my drysuit because of the novelty of staying dry. Still no class lists on the symposiums of interest, so no idea if helmets are required.

@Sparky961. Am very conscious of shoulders. Rotator cuff exercises are a regularity. And yes, the winds were crazy last night, keeping me up half the night because 46mph gusts barreling through the forest make spooky sounds.

@pmmpete. The hip wiggles shown in the video at .16 are easy with a well fitting cockpit. How easy upside down, I don’t know. Started playing with hanging off a dock edge in November. I think there’s much that can be learned through studying videos and reading, but also think the trained eye of a good instructor is important since body position plays such a large part in doing anything in a kayak versus doing it well.

I’m a much better sculler with my Euro than my GP, but that’s because I haven’t put the pratice time in. Will make good use of play time at the pool to improve my GP control and see where it takes me.

So many good ideas - I always learn so much reading the different opinions and suggestions here. Thanks!

Neoprene caps are usually 3mm thick, which is good enough for the pool. Sizing is like anything else–it’s best to try on the one you want to buy. Lacking that opportunity, I have also bought based on the manufacturer’s website charts.

@Rookie
Some of the above is why I think you have to just get there. Whenever and wherever “there” is. As to caps/hoods, I usually use one when practicing in Maine by myself because, under the helmet, it saves me having to find my Doc’s plugs. Helmet is not optional when practicing by yourself, in case you find a rock with your head. One aspect of being wet a lot is the risk of otitis, something a musician even amateur cannot afford. You can get true diving hoods in a variety of thicknesses, but unless you are trying to practice rolls in 45 degree water or below the regular ones from NRS or Kokatat are fine. I paddle with a hood around my neck, even if it is down, most days in Maine due to sheer laziness. If weather or a blow comes by, I can pull up the hood to help stay warm rather than having to dig for a cag.
As to worrying about how things work upside down, it is overkill on your part right now. You will find that you get to the surface first, which will automatically bring the boat up some, and the rest works itself out. If you were talking about a really flat pancake like some whitewater boats there may be a different timing and emphasis to the oomph. But your goal is to roll a sea kayak, which as I recall is not oversized for you, and you find it likes getting partway up. If the pool session does have WW boats that you have to use, you may find an assortment of somewhat roll friendly boats like the Dagger RPM or some of the old school boats, or if newer maybe Jackson boats. Because these boats are really cheap as well as relatively kind for rolling. Sometimes you will encounter creekers these days, so for that you want the smallest thing they have since creekers tend to have higher decks than river runners. Makes it more annoying to get the boat’s attention. But basics is basics, and despite what a lot of WW folks say you are likely to find a roll ultimately easier in your sea kayak because it is narrower and rounder.

What Celia said “get out there”. Mileage. There is nothing your body does out of the water that equates to “rolling the kayak” itself. Once upside down all the movement sequences are totally alien when you first start, even after memorizing a ton of the motions. Years ago I purchased “The Kayak Roll” by Mary DeRiemer. I watched it all winter, until I could recite the dialog laying in bed. Got out that spring and commenced to wet exiting alot, but by end of summer I could roll on both sides well. Possibly could have learned faster with a greenland technique/paddle, but I used a euro style. Mary and Phil on the DVD were my only instructors. Did I mention I definitely learned to wet exit along the way. A buddy system can alleviate the need for that step as I learned by attending some greenland training events. I can’t remember who borrowed the TKR DVD, but it must be making the rounds… Have Fun…

“Why so many rolls…”
Because sometimes you might just want to have fun…!

Enjoy…

Bill

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiNi-FKvvgA

The beard (along with the GP) seems to help a lot.

@rsevenic said:
The beard (along with the GP) seems to help a lot.

No fair about the beard helping! Guys already have the advantage of hiding their wrinkles under a beard, mustache or goatee. We gals don’t have that option. :expressionless:

Stika’s so happy under water, can’t help but smile watching that video. I think he has gills.

Now, I always thought that you just weren’t a “Greenland Pro” if you were male and without a big bushy beard…

(There seems to be a disproportionate amount of facial hair in the Greenland paddling community. Anyone else notice this?)

sometimes…Your deck need to be washed…so you rollhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqH61dDPsdM