That’s a safe bet Salty!
“I’ll bet $ you could radius the edges on the Greenlander and it would perform the same…but that’s not very fun to hear…I know.”
I go a bit farther and wager for better all around performance.
Adding even just a slight radius makes the boat stronger and stiffer (besides the reduced turbulence along the buttock lines and small reduction in wetted surface), while not really changing the overall shape/feel/handling in to a detectable level. The radius would have to get so large as to be really altering the surfaces/cross sections to change anything important.
This chine stuff is just about always and apples/oranges thing anyway - because as far as I know only Nick Schade has hard and soft chined versions of basically the same hull to compare.
Truly hard chines should be left to SOF and S&G where they are an acceptable consequence of construction and materials and the aesthetics are the natural result of this. Makes little sense to put them on a composite design (though it apparently makes $).
Hard chines on a composite are like fins on an old Cadillac, or the hard “stealth” inspired edges on the newer ones. As a designer, I’m all for styling details like that - but on a kayak we might want to keep that marketing stuff above the shear…
I like the use of "styling details"
Apropos. I don’t think they’re a detraction the same way round headlights on a new jaguar are not a detraction, but I agree about the marketing.
Agree Greyak
You, I, Nick, Flatpick, Bnystrom, others know this. Anyone who’s played with kayak design knows this, though some may not want to upset a marketing wave that’s caught on!! Hey, a few hard edges have sold a lot of kayaks.
I have a hard chined paddle I love
Wood prototype. Commercial version would be smoothed out a bit - for market acceptance…
Thanks for All the Replies
Actually, I do own the NDK Explorer, but, as I’ve mentioned, I miss my Caribou S.
Watching “This is the Sea” videos, we see MANY Romanys and Explorers in CRAZY conditions. The Greenland Pro does NOT seem to fair quite as well. We won’t even MENTION what happens to the Dagger 
So, my thinking was that the 'Bou would get tossed easier in such conditions, thus I purchased the Explorer. I’m a kayak WHORE, and will NEVER paddle in such conditions, but I do like great yaks…
Thus the questions re: the 'Bou, Explorer, et al. I’ve NEVER heard ANY flack about the Caribou, but the Explorer gets the most credit of most yaks.
So, just wondered if the 'Bou could handle as rough of seas. I sure miss the speed of that damn thing. Also had a GTS, which was fast, FAST, but didn’t do well in surf and launching in waves.
Glenn
Only got one season on my 'Bou
and was starting to feel that it was one of the best paddling boats I’ve owned but it does have those dreadful ‘hard edges’ so I suppose it can’t be all that good afterall. Too bad. John
Yeah, and…
Let's not tell all those Greenlanders about the inadequacy of those pesky hard chines either...
BTW, Salty, what does hydrodyn. tell us about eccentricity and drag in a turn? Further, as an IFR-rated pilot, I'd really like to know what blindfolded paddlers can tell about rate of turn.
It’s a great kayak
and I’m not saying hard edges make a kayak bad. I’m saying they have more to do with theme and styling than actual paddling performance. Racers would not have them at all, but any slight increase in drag would be inconsequential in a touring yak.
As I understand it the tests related to the feel of primary / secondary stability, and feel of the boats. I got this from a conversation with Cunningham some time ago. Don’t have specifics other than him saying people coudn’t tell, and/ or were wrong when they were certain.
If you feel they do something great for you so be it…then they do!
Think about how greenland . trad. boats were built…pretty hard to have a fare hull. Is a Baidarka a hard or soft chine? Or a multi edged soft chine?
Do the “Hard” Edges “Hold” You in Turns?
I was told that the "hard" edges create a "secondary" hull when the 'Bou is put up on its edge. Could this be true?
To me, however, it seems to affect its looks as much as anything. But they are quite pronounced, so I figure they have SOMETHING to do with the 'Bou's great performance...
Any comments about the "This is the Sea" videos which show the Explorers and Romanys handling tidal currents (perhaps) better than the Greenlander Pro?
As far as the "drag" created by such edges, I'd agree it'd be negligible. Besides, water likes to act as ball bearings, then sheets, when "confronted" with "obstacles" such as these hard edges. One could argue that a sharp-edged hull would "throw" the ball-bearing-acting surf AWAY from the hull, thus creating LESS drag ;)
I think this is some interesting stuff. Why these hard edges? The designers of these kayaks had SOMETHING in mind, and whatever that something is, it apparently works, but how WELL is MY question...
Glenn
Two designers come to mind
Barry Buchanan worked out the lines for the Caribou. He referred to it as a four panel design,not really as a Greenland boat though the antecedents are there. The early boats were built of ply and later kevlar. CD bought the production rights to the boat and it seems to have been successful enough to keep in their line for more than ten years. As I recall, Geof Blackford worked out the lines for another well known hard-chined boat, the Ana Acuta. The Anas has been around forever. As far as I know, neither designer had much experience shaping surfboards. John
There ya have it
Lets make a hull from 4 sheets of plywood and NOT have a hard edge…Not likely.
Is this bad? Clearly not
Is it in fact traditional? Yep, secondary to construction materials / methods.
If I want to introduce a traditional kayak with traditional lines, might I have some hard edges? Yep, Greenlander, Caribou, Anas Acuta
If I make a traditional row boat will it be lap strake construction? Probably
Not about “inadequacy” or Greenland…
… bashing.
There are a lot of great hard chined designs. When you read my post above it’s not about preference at all. I’m not anti-chine. Far from it really (check my profile image!). I’m just for using the materials to best advantage.
Of the 3 sea kayaks I have hanging outside - 2 are hard chined! Very hard. My SOF and a WS (Mark Rogers designed) Sparrow Hawk - in Kevlar.
My SOF is hard chined because of construction method. If I were to translate that design into a hardshell I’d round over all the edges a bit. Might only yield a minimal performance gain by some folks measure, but a big strength gain (with other benefits in production as well).
Once you go to composite it isn’t “Greenland” anymore anyway. My SOF never really was despite the look and construction. How many 6m swedeforms with full ends are the Greenlanders paddling these days? I built my own design and borrowed their methods as they suited my situation. A change in methods and materials would warrant another look at the lines.
The Sparrow Hawk has hard edges because it’s a copy of a plywood (not quite S&G as Mark;s methods go beyond that) kayak and inspired by Greenland designs (construction & styling). It’s a fun and surprisingly fast little kayak - but the flat panels flex a lot in the composite version and also create hardpoints that can be damaged more easily. Functionally (in composite) it would be structurally better with the edges rounded over and some arc to the panels, but then it would loose the look and not be in the Hawk family anymore. For some, that’s more important than structural and small performance improvements (and while I disagree on technical points, I wouldn’t change it either).
It simple reality that sharp edges on kayak hulls are either a construction artifact - or styling - or both. You can get virtually identical on water behavior with or without, so they’re really not doing anything for you in that regard.
If doing composite hulls you can get better performance by cleaning them up. Maybe not a lot of drag reduction - and not enough for most sea kayakers to feel - but performance is about more than just drag. It’s also about how the materials perform. Corners on composites is not taking best advantage of those materials.
I do like the look of hard chines on some kayaks, but I can’t see the chines when I’m paddling them - and neither can the water in any positive way - and that matters more to me than the on-rack performance.
Back to the 'bou: I’ve always liked it a lot. One of a short list that as a beginner I sat in and immediately felt at one with. Some kayaks are “friendly” like that - but which ones will be different for everyone, and has nothing to do with the existence of sharp corners on some of their hulls.
The friendly "Bou"
I’m seriously considering buying my old Bou back…
For those lazy days that I don’t want to work as hard. I might consider an Explorer but my kevlar/tuff expedition layup Bou was 51lbs.
Is the 'Bou capable in big water
I didn’t paddle it, but Matt Johnson and I were both in 5-foot seas in Lake Michigan a couple years ago (along with a couple other gents in other various boats). He easily made progress and stayed at the front of the pack, and when we turned downwind to retreat he was surfing his little a$$ off, all while fully loaded.
So yeah it can do nasty stuff.
Randy
What is a chine?
"Is a Baidarka a hard or soft chine? Or a multi edged soft chine?"
If the chine is the primary seam/junction between the bottom of a hull and the side of the hull and not the existence of a relatively flat surface on the bottom or side, then many Greenland SOF boats actually have rather soft chines. Even the SOF boat the AA is derived from. Also, many have, in essence, a more rounded hull shape than often assumed. For example this one which has a roundish hull in front and more flat paneled in the rear:
http://www.capefalconkayak.com/1935sisimuit.html
Remind anyone of Nigel Foster's hulls or Nick's Petrel? Those Inuit had a paucity of materials, but their hulls are not simplistic.
I agree there are relatively sharp edges in the hull, but overall not like a S&G boat or AA.
I wonder if we need to keep distinct the differences between chines and the hull shape when we talk of hard chined boats.
Good question, here’s my answer
If we think of the hull shape from the vertical center line to the seam line we have a curve, or series of flats etc. Where the relatively flatter portion of the hull turns upward toward the seam line would be considered the chine. Turn of the bilge to some ship designers…
Designers I know well would think in terms of “overall chine profile”, and “edge profile” as seperate, whereas the market may lump them together as one. A baidarka would have a soft / rounded overall chine profile, with multiple hard edges. Many of the Brit / Greenland kayaks would have a hard overall profile with a soft edge, or hard edge in the case of the Anus, or Greenlander. Some will refer to these as full chine / meaning a rather full cross section.
What some of us are trying to convey is that it’s that "overall shape’ as well as how that shape changes from bow to stern, combined with rocker, that determines how a hull will feel and turn, track etc., not a specific “edge”.
But again, reality is subjective. If someone really wants to attribute something to a specific feature on their boat…who cares? It’s OK. You’re just getting information fron a different perspective.
When stuff is said that conflicts with popular notions, it’s going to get resistance. My intent here is to share understanding, not to suggest good, bad, or otherwise. You’ll note that I like the Caribou.
Perhaps these converstaions don’t belong on a general interest forum?
Obvious (?) observation
Rather than chine design/profile, it seems that where and how the volume is distributed is more significant affecting the performance characteristics of a boat.
My Aquanaut, Celia’s Explorer, and my Nordkapp LV are currently hanging one above the other in the basement. At casual glance one would never guess how differently each of these hulls feels when paddling. The most obvious diference in the hulls is how the volume is distributed.
I’ve grown to realize that every slight difference in design is a slight difference. It takes an accumulation of these differences to comprise the unique personality of a boat.
Used to own one
There’s something about that boat I really like.
As far as hard chines being more grabby in
beam seas, the bou didn’t really feel that way
compared to my BB or ellesmere. I’am always
keeping my eyes open for a deal on one.
Chines and hull "feel"
In my above post when I said that the hull of the Explorer (rounded hard chine) and that of the Greenlander Pro (hard edged hard chined) were completely different, I was referring to the stability profile.
All of the hard chine boats with hard edges I have every paddled have a similar feeling stability profile that is somewhat “indexed.” Loose primary and a very distinct secondary.
Rounder chines / softer edged boats generally feel to me to have a more gradual transition from primary to secondary.
True this may be a function of more than just the edge on the chine (free board, flare, etc) but I have found that this trait is noticeable in the Greenlander Pro, Legend, Silhouette, and Elaho. All have hard chines and hard edges.
I can also say from having owned a Greenlander Pro for about a year that it had a much different handling characterisitic than other boats. Although some may disagree I think it could be attributed to the hard edge.
I found that it would turn well, but only when tracking through a turn (carving) and not exhibit any sort of sliding or skidding as with other boats.
When on edge it would turn well with sweeps and with bow rudders, but did not turn well with a low brace turn (more of a skidding turn). Also sucked for the side slip as it would not skid sideways very well.
I attributed (perhaps incorrectly) this to the hard edges. Seems that on edge the hard edge acts somewhat like a keel.
Again, I may be wrong, but logically it makes sense to me in explaining the boat’s tendency to “carve” turns or track through a turn.
I know that Salty has said before that “carve” is an industry term. Perhaps this is true, but I find it to be an applicable adverb in describing boat handling.
Think of the difference between a Porshe making a sharp turn on a paved road or a baja vehicle making a sharp turn on dirt. Both may turn just as sharply, only one tracks (carves) and the other skids. My Greenlander Pro was more like the Porshe and my Avocet was more like the baja vehicle. Both would turn sharply…only differently.
Matt
Yep wilso
As I mentioned, it’s the overall shape. Sometimes an edge allows a designer to gracefully carry volume in an appealing way. Looksha 17 comes to mind. The edges add a lot of appeal and allowed the designer to do what he wanted to do in an eye catchy way.
It’s amazing how simple tweaks to a hull and where volume is placed etc., can have a huge impact. I speak from experience here having been part of that process may times over.
Volume matters. Conversely, copy your Elaho in foam, sand down the edges, make a temp tool, mold a boat, and guess what? Turns the same, if not better, behaves the same? Why? Cuz it’s essentially the same hull volume and shape wise. Now, reduce the flare, tweak the rocker, pull the chine out…huge changes.
Making any sense? Wouldn’t blame ya if it didn’t.