Available special order
There is a small market for the Romany and Explorer LV for people who have the weight for the hull and also enjoy a remarkably tight fit.
I know a smaller woman paddler who went from the Explorer LV to the Pilgrim. She is very happy with the Pilgrim. I have an Explorer LV myself - and I spend most of my time actually paddling a lower volume Vela because I can get quickness that is not available in the Explorer for me.
windage?
Coming from an Avocet, I suspect all of the Romany are less manuverable. Not that I would lose sleep over it. I do have the strokes to move boats every which way.
My main concerned is the Romany isn’t exactly low volume. I only weight 110# so it’s hard for me to edge a regular volume kayak. And for the most part, I want to make a change to something that fits me a bit better weight-wise. Better than the Avocet (regular) I currently have, that is.
One of the issue with too much volume is windage. Unless I have the boat fully loaded with camping gear, I got blown around a lot. When I’m sitting with the group on water, I’m always the one who takes off downwind while I did absolutely nothing!
Romany and windage
Romany cockpit is further back than usual, including the Explorer. Maneuverability is certainly comparable to the Avocet. It’s just that it is a (very) loose bow boat. The latter could add windage when the person in it is too light.
It is a great boat. But at 100 pounds for your weight, it is not your boat, nor is the regular Avocet.
You need to get into a boat that will respond to an edge from your just shifting weight rather than having to haul and shove the boat over to get a deep edge. I get it - it’s me in the Explorer. You should have a decent shot at that in the Avocet LV or the Pilgrim. Ease of edging will compensate for much of any trackier aspect of these boats because of a narrower width.
Current Designs Suka is definitely a
smaller person’s boat. I can barely get my thighs under the braces at 5’6" and 160 lbs - and my thighs aren’t that big.
It might be worth checking out if you can find a dealer anywhere near there
on windage
I would venture a guess that your kayak’s trim is a little off. I always see this problem when folks’ weight doesn’t match kayak design specs.
NDK boats
"I get it - it’s me in the Explorer. "
I actually test paddled the Explorer a while back, good hour on a fairly windy day (10-15 knot). I was surprised at how well it turns. Must be the trademark “loose bow” of NDK boats?
So where does the Pilgrim Expedition fits volume-wise? If the Pilgrim is a scaled down Romany, the Pilgrim Exp would be…?
Loading the Romany LV
Windage was most noticeable on a short camping trip (part of the class). I made the mistake of loading the Romany LV as if its balance were more like, I guess, most sea kayaks. I should’ve put more weight in the bow. So that loose bow also rode a bit too high.
I thought the Romany LV was very easy to edge, probably partly because of its snug vertical fit. Explorer LV, which I had been warned might be a pain to turn, actually was also fairly easy to edge, UNloaded. The LV cockpit and lower deck help a lot with giving body contact. However–and this turned out to be a big however–I had bought it for both day trips and longer camping trips. Once I actually loaded it (and not even with a full load), I thought it took a lot of effort to edge, more so than the loaded Romany LV. Caveat: Every kayak I’ve paddled with camping gear has felt harder to edge, no surprise. But the Explorer LV was so stable in the first place that adding weight pushed it into the “hmmm” category for me. I found myself wishing there were a narrower, lower-volume hull slightly shorter, like 17 ft long. Perfectly happy to lose some of the stability. And guess what, the Pilgrim came out, followed a year later by the Pilgrim Expedition.
Can butt-cheek-edge in the PEX, too
For lack of a better term, that’s what I call it.
At 110 lbs, she will be able to edge the Pilgrim Expedition just by weighting one cheek instead of relying on leg contact with the thigh braces. It is narrow enough to make the difference from the same action undertaken in the Explorer LV by the same lightweight paddler. Namely, me; so that is why I can say she (only slightly heavier) will be able to butt-cheek-edge it.
Of course, having leg contact feels more secure and is good for greater degrees of edging, but it’s nice to have a sea kayak that will initiate a turn just by my shifting weight a little and looking in the direction of the turn. I do have to say that the Romany LV is low-volume enough (because it’s short) that I could butt-cheek-edge that one also. As well as a P&H Capella 161 even though the latter has a large cockpit. Lack of snug fit in the cockpit made me feel a little uneasy, but the fact was that I could butt-cheek-edge that kayak also, and it would begin turning.
Thanks a lot
for all the info. I’ll keep those in mind when I get to test paddle them.
The Avocet I have is surprisingly snug fitting. Thigh contact isn’t great due to the relatively high deck (not high by any standard, just hight FOR ME). The thing is, however, I’m not sure I want to be “locked in” on long paddles. As observed by many others, it’s nice to have a bit of “wiggle room” under the deck. I can still roll the Avocet without trying very hard despite the lack of solid knee contact.
I have yet to find a seakayak narrow enough or with low enough volume I could edge it by cheek-to-butt. The fact I’m tall and slim (I termed it “light for my height”) might have something to do with it, the lack of lateral leverage. I’ll have to see if the Romany’s changes that.
To repeat…
The Romany will not give you a deep edge just by butt-cheeking, at least given the very deep edge the Romany is capable of. You don’t weigh enough. That is what the Pilgrims were created to do.
I have to ask - you have been told a number of times in this thread that the Pilgrim is a better fit for your size. But you keep coming back to sounding like you want to make a Romany work. Is there some reason that you want to make the Romany work, like having access to a good price on a used one?
light for your height?
– Last Updated: May-18-12 10:52 AM EST –
How tall are you, then?
I am 5.9x150, Pilgrim/Avocet LV/Pilgrim Ex/TideRace XCite-s allow me to have relaxed torso rotation, butt edging, and enough room under the deck to move my legs.
Edit - I find regular size Avocet FG lacking in response where edging is concerned.
Yeah - load a bit more bow heavy
Not a lot, the Explorer and Romany stop working right if you overweight the bow. But the 40 front 60 back theory isn’t a plan for light people in these boats. I go 50/50 in the Explorer. With the seat set so far back in the Romany I’d at least start even front to back.
…
– Last Updated: May-18-12 11:55 AM EST –
"like having access to a good price on a used one?"
Yes. That's part of it.
But more significantly, I'm not convinced I shouldn't even try it before ruling it out!
I'd like to get a handle on what to expect and what to watch for when I test paddle. That's about it.
Wasn’t saying not to try
It is just that it sounded like you are trying to make the Romany work. And you have had little in the way of questions about how to hook up with a Pilgrim to try. They aren’t the easiest boats to find because they are newer, so they aren’t everywhere like the Romany/Explorers. The Romany is now a 20 year old design - 1993 was the first year - and the Explorer came soon after. The Pilgrims are at most 5 years old, I think more like 4.
I would suggest that you get into any low volume boat you can, even if it is not one on your possible wish list. Some of what you have said above indicates that you have gotten maybe too accustomed to a volume that is bigger than you need to be pushing. The sea kayaks truly designed for smaller paddlers really are a lot more fun to paddle.
You’ll probably like both Pilgrims
The knee bumps give you some extra room for up-and-down leg movement, while being narrow enough overall for easy edging. A lightweight person won’t miss the lower primary stability (compared with wider boats).
But I still think you should demo all of them. The Romany LV is a fun boat, though quirky.
.
“I would suggest that you get into any low volume boat you can, even if it is not one on your possible wish list.”
I’ve already tried a few. So I already know what I don’t like!
The Vela I hate. The Tiderace was nothing special. The Avocet LV is definitely an improvement over the regular Avocet. But I must say it’s less than earth shattering, as many here would had me believe! (and that was the year when the Pilgrim was announced but not yet available at shops) That left the biggest “family” of low volume boat being the NDK line!
That’s why I’m looking into those 3, all in the same “family”. NDK boats have a slightly different hull design than Valley so I’m quite interested in trying them out to see if I like the handling characteristic.
I know it’s typical for an internet forum to make suggestion that’s not directly related to the question asked. Sometimes that’s helpful for people who hadn’t thought of it, to broaden their view. Except in my case, I’ve already gone through that “discover” process.
that was great, thank you
Thorough comparison.
Find out which size seat is in the demo
There are 2 sizes of the new glass seat.
Also, if the demo boat has had the black side inserts (hip area) removed from the seat recess made for them, ask if you can use some of the strap-secured Salamander hip pads, or something similar. The Pilgrim I used in San Diego had had this done to it, and I immediately noticed the looser fit compared with my unaltered seat. The shop had some removable hip pads that fit well in the right place, and that made it feel right. Because I was going to use it in surf, the shop owner also suggested that I glue in some extra minicell under the thigh brace area, which I did. That made the boat fit tighter than my PEX at home (which has some foam there but not as much). It worked great; however, I have not changed my own outfitting to match, as I am satisfied with it.
Cetus LV?
– Last Updated: May-19-12 9:12 AM EST –
I spent a day in the Avocet LV. It is a quite reliable, steady on boat and has good features. Nothing about it rang any bells for me either, but some very good paddlers live happily with that boat.
The Vela is a love it or hate it boat - she is quirky. I've had that boat in nasty tide races and surf and keep waiting to find something she can't handle.... haven't found it yet. But I am aware that I am in the minority. The only other folks that have gotten into that boat and immediately liked it were a couple of friends with WW background and a guy locally who really wanted the height for pumping.
I don't know if you have gotten into one yet, but I know a number of people who have been very happy with the Cetus LV by P&H, including a primarily greenland paddler and a quite well-respected coach. At least one of them is within an inch of your height and 10 pounds of your weight. I spent a little bit of time in one myself, not enough to run it thru its paces but enough to find it had comfortable seating and was easy to maneuver. It is a boat I would consider and one that I think hits the mark better than the Capella 161, the other boat in the P&H line which was intended for small paddlers. The Cetus LV feels sweet.
I apologize if I missed something, but when you said that you had yet to find a boat that you could butt-slide in to any effect I took it to mean that you hadn't been in low volume boats. You are lighter than me, but I would have thought that you could get that effect even at your weight with a solid slide into the bilge on a couple of the boats you have tried. I am perhaps incorrect on that one.
I wear size 4 pants…
if that means anything. And that’s actually petite 4.
I’m tall enough for just about everything normal size. So deck height isn’t a big deal for me. It’s mostly volume, but also a lot of width I don’t need. If it were up to me (no, I’m NOT building a boat), I’d prefer a 19-20" width boat and will be much happier.
The new crop of LV boats goes a long way in the right direction. It’ll be right-sized for volume. Still, all of them are way too wide for me.
I can make most of the 16" long boats work. And I think I’ll enjoy the newer LV boats. But I suspect I will not be blown away by any of them. Because most of them are still made for people a lot wider and heavier than me. At the end of the day, a boat that can ride over ocean swells and carry camping gear for a long weekend just have to have certain volume. It’s a compromise I’m ready to accept. Just trying to get as close to optimal as I can. Rather than trying to find that illusive perfect boat.