So I take out of this
just about any sea kayak in the 16-18ft range with a width of 21-22in. with a fair amount of rocker will be a good rough water boat, and that skill level trumps a particular boat or boat design. That is what I thought before I started the topic, but after doing some reading on the subject it seemed certain boats are always mentioned and some pretty good boats never seem to be mentioned.
there are
a lot of very good rough water boats out there that almost never get mentioned. Some are more playful with a lot of rocker and more chine and some track well with less rocker, but I paddle on a regular basis with people who can accomplish some amazing stuff in completely different kayaks.
However there are certain kayaks that have a tendency to broach in following wind and waves or struggle to head into the wind around 20 knots.
I also think GP skills are cool, although I would rather use a Greenland paddle to develop skills instead of an injury that could have been avoided.
Get out there, have fun, and don’t hurt yourself.
scemantics
The pintail is very full in the chine profile with a soft edge. A surf ski is very round in the cross section to reduce drag and increase speed. As has been said many times folk focus on the edge characteristic more than the overall volume of the chine / hull.
In the end it’s the paddler, as you alude further up.
Rough water paddler vs RW boat
One major characteristic that NDK boats have is a very flat bottom / high initial stability which makes a lot of paddlers more comfortable in them in rough conditions. I think this is a good essential ingredient for the ease of rough water handling. But I agree, I’ve been on group paddles where every boat imaginable is in rough conditions and the better paddlers just do better. I once saw a pungo out in very rough condition too and the paddler was doing fine because of the giant initial stability.
Agree, Stability does not mean beginner
A hull that has the necessary volume in the right places so as to be playful and free on edge (great rough sea handling)is also stable. All compromises.
One way to make a Romany, Chatham 16, Avocet less playful and fun in the rough would be to take a couple of inches of beam (VOLUME)out of their hulls and make em a foot longer. You’d gain some straight ahead efficiency but lose play.
For everything you tweak you win and lose.
Waterlines?
It seems to me that all hulls have their most optimum waterline and if one is to light for that hull then it sits high and a tad tender and if they are to heavy then it sits to deep and becomes a little lethargic. Some designers try to compensate by making an HV model of a hull, but if all they do is simply add a higher deck, then I wonder if it will still sit deeper then its’ optimum waterline with a heavier paddler?
different strokes
– Last Updated: Dec-23-09 8:35 AM EST –
If you are selling a kayak at a shop, you want to sell them a kayak that most people will be satisfied with in conditions that most people paddle. AKA Explorer.
However, other kayaks that are long and narrow provide some kayakers with a quicker reflex for countering beam conditions. I find this especially true for flat bottomed kayaks, and I have also read that many other AA owners feel the same way.
The Necky Chatham 18 has a narrow beam, little rocker, yet is stable, tracks well, can turn well in the right hands, and IMO for some people has more advantages than disadvantages than a shorter kayak with more rocker.
I like something more "playful" but not to the extent of broaching following seas, or weather or lee cocking in more challenging conditions.
I agree with Salty that there are compromises, and most kayakers would not be satisfied with some are willing to make.
I thought I was a little to heavy for a 16' for an all around coastal kayak, but if I had my choice of 3 different kayaks one would be a rough water play boat, one a coastal day boat, and one for longer trips with more cargo capacity.
Rough Water Boat
I would say the most important characteristic of a rough water boat is neutrality both above and below the water line. I often use the term “stupid boat” for one that only reacts when I tell it to and then does what I tell it to do. Wind is the most important factor as it causes waves. So if a boat is designed in such a way that it requires a rudder, or sliding seat to compensate for the wind by changing the trim then I would say it would not be a rough water boat. When testing a boat I try to find at least 15-20 kts of wind and position my self abeam to it. Then I try trimming by just leaning forward or backward. A neutral boat will turn upwind when you lean forward and downwind when you lean back. Of course as you start paddling the trim will change, but it is a good place to start.
Falcon
snug fit, wear the boat
The boat has tight thigh braces and hip pads. You wear the boat like a ww boat in class 5. When you lean, it leans. WW boats are not intended for reentry. A small cockpit is less apt to leak and less apt to have the skirt pull off. Not really intended for reentry in big water without help. Not easy to rotate and paddle fast in tight boat.
My eft with undertsren rudder was great this summer on a nasty day on lake Ontario. Huge swells were hitting rock cliffs with waves shooting straight up about 20 ft. Prevailing wind and waves from west were hitting islands with steep cliffs as I went north. The understern rudder helped me turn like a ferrari and tack around the biggest breaking swells.
"…the better paddlers just do better. "
– Last Updated: Dec-23-09 1:52 PM EST –
Pretty much says it all ;-)
Though I prefer my Romany to my Nordlow or Aquanaut for surfing, tide races, and rock gardening, I've more than once watched skilled paddlers being amazingly graceful in Nordkapps in just those conditions.
Many folk I know using sea kayaks to play in rough seas use Romanys, Chatham 16s, Avocets, Explorers, with some still preferring Pintails or Anas Acutas.
It appears you have a great
understanding of what the man was asking. Now if you answer any or all of those rephrased questions, it may be quite helpful to him.
OK, I’ll Try
I’m a run of the mill, weekend paddler of modest skills in New England so I cannot speak to boats good for playing in the “Bitches” or surfing big swells on the West Coast.
I think of “rough water” as a combination of two things. First, confused water where waves and current or rocks are all mixed up and in conflict. Second, rough conditions caused by high winds and not small waves which are steep, breaking and short period. Some days I want to just play around in and some days I need to move through “rough water” to get to a destination so a “rough water” boat to me is one that is balanced for both.
Traits I like for a “rough water” boat.
I like small volume, light boats and the AA to me is almost a big boat and is a heavy boat. I like boats that are transparent, communicate directly, and respond quickly to inputs. I don’t mind having to be focused, I don’t mind a boat that moves all over the place so long as it does the right thing if I do the right thing. I like a boat that can easily be turned in any direction regardless of the wind. In short, the rougher things get, the more I like a boat that disappears so its me and the ocean. I move and react to the water as opposed to my seeking to make the boat move and react to the water. In short, it is just an extension of my body. Technically, logic tells me the AA and especially my SOF should not be good “rough water” boats. The AA of course defies all logic if not reason itself. However, I have spent enough time in them that I am at home in them in “rough water”. At the same time while my Force is not a play boat and is not remotely like the other two, I never have to think about it in a different way and it is boat that seems never anxious in “rough water” and neither am I when in it.
All the techno talk aside, I believe a good “rough water” boat is any decent boat you have played in enough to know well and have faith in.
Not sure this contributes anything, but its my personal take on it.
Ya, but you love to play around
in ten foot breakers !
Cheers,
jackL
Personal preference …
I much perfer a loose fitting sea kayak to a locked in feel like a whitewater boat in rough conditions, so one size does not fit all.
Best,
~wetzool
Salty, Falcon
2 concise, useful answers. Thanks. But that won’t stop us from putting forward all sorts of other, um, stuff.
Salty, Falcon
2 concise, useful answers. Thanks. But that won’t stop us from putting forward all sorts of other, um, stuff.
???
I know plenty of 4 and 5* paddlers and I think that trying to get them to rank boats would lead to them looking at you like you’re crazy. It’s not the boat, it’s the paddler in the boat. I’ve gone out with beginners in high end boat’s that have great rough water handling characteristics and they still can’t handle it. Also, I would hardly say that NDK is the be all do all boat; there are MANY other manufacturers out there. I prefer Valley, I know many who really like their WS Tempests, a few NCs, etc. The point is, it’s not the boat.
For the record, I like my Valley Anasacuta and I’m 6’1" 180 lbs and it rocks; also, my PH Quest does great. They are wildly different boats in terms of profile and cross section, but I like both for rough water.
By the way, When I’m getting slammed into sea walls and rocks I like my little plastic WW boat.
Watch "This is the Sea"
You’ll see what truly “rough” water CAN be by definition.
This said, some reasonably good paddlers get TRASHED while paddling Dagger’s and other (non-British) yaks.
The Explorers and the Rockwells featured in these films handle anything thrown at them, given the paddler is better than excellent.
I agree with the “neutral” above and below the waterline.
Glenn (still milling around)
Rockpool
Uh, that would be Rockpool. Rockwell was an artist.
Falcon
given the paddler is better than…
"…given the paddler is better than excellent." -Yup.
Anyone can get trashed in conditions paddling any boat. Better paddlers get trashed less in such conditions. Boats designed for those conditions (NDK, Rockpool, TideRace, etc…) help, but the paddler makes the biggest difference.