Rails - Chines
It speaks about “Soft Rails on the front for release, Hard Rails on the rear for speed” so how much does hard chine soft chine define a longer boats performance in rough water. We know volume placement and rocker does influence outcomes, but how about chine profiles?
How would a soft chine bow and stern with a hard chine in the center work?
Tahe Greenland
Price in USA is around $2,700.00. They are beautifully made and stunning on the water. To say they are easy to roll and do various Greenland stuff is a serious understatement. It is a low volume boat when compared to other commercial FG boats. For example an Explorer type boat will look like a tanker next to it. In my limited experience it handles rough water fine and is not “tippy” nor “nervous” either at rest or in conditions. For comparison, I consider an Anas Acuta a stable boat, and the Greenland is not as stable. They are made with a light layup so playing in surf and amongst rocks is for the brave only. From pictures only, it appears the T version has a keyhole as opposed to an ocean cockpit, is wider by a couple of inches, has complete perimeter lines and toggles, has a day hatch, will carry at least 70 more pounds, and might be a better all around boat.
rails and chines
are two different things.
rails are the edge of a surf kayak where the chine meets the flat bottom. They can be hard or come to an angle just like a chine, or round out. A hard rail will carve like the dickens, but tend to be less forgiving when you want it to release to transition to a new direction of travel. So when they talk about hard rails and soft rails, there are some areas where they want the tail to release quickly to be able to achieve dynamic moves such as cutbacks or aerials, top turns etc , and other areas where a hard rail is a must such as a hard bottom turn.
A chine on a sea kayak may also have a rail, but it is sort of like saying a white wine has tannins. It does and it doesn’t, it does, but nothing compared to a red wine.
The tahe greenland looks like a fun boat
to paddle and to roll, but a surf/rough water boat. Maybe not. There’s just not enough volume for my liking to be able to plane out without driving the bow down, or sloshing underwater. If you were to attempt to edge off to change direction on a wave, you would just be driving the whole edge underwater and slowing yourself down.
A key point of any boat is it’s buoyancy in the bow and in the stern, you can’t surf on the water if you’re under the water.
2 cents.
some statisics…
– Last Updated: Feb-10-10 6:54 PM EST –
According to Sea Kayaker reviews: at 2 knots (2.3mph) an Epic Endurance 18 produces .97 pounds of drag, while a Nordkapp LV produces.9, at 3 knots (3.45mph) an Endurance 18 produces 2.03 pounds of drag, while a Nordlow produces 1.88, at 4 knots (4.6mph) the Endurance produces 3.55 pounds, the Nordlow 3.52.
So, up through 4.5mph an Epic Endurance 18 produces more drag than a Nordlow. Of course an Epic 18 is not intended to be paddled at leisurely pace, for at 6 knots (7mph) the Epic produces 11.27 pounds of drag to the Nordlow's 14.22.
So, if ease of moving the boat forward is a concern, think about the speeds you actually paddle or hope to paddle. If you paddle mostly under 5mph, all other things being somewhat constant, a well designed shorter waterline will be less effort.
Now the disclaimer: In the real world there are many factors that effect how fast a specific paddler can comfortably paddle a specific boat in specific conditions.
RE rudders: I've seen legs, arms and other body parts gashed by rudders and their mechanisms - and not only in rough conditions, once even in a pool session.
The difficulty and danger of grabbing a ruddered boat in surf or in a rescue when a paddler has to come over the rear deck is enough to discourage me from having a ruddered boat. If I were circumnavigating a continent I might feel differently, however, I have no plans to do so ;-)
"we have no interest in other boats"
I am sure that is the case.
However, when I’ve given my Romany or Nordlow to another paddler to try it is not because I don’t think the boat is great, quite the opposite, it is usually because I think the other paddler will appreciate how much better the boat maybe than the one they are otherwise paddling.
Most of the time I offer one of my boats to someone else to paddle it is because I think it is a great boat that I want another person to experience.
suspect you are right
I certainly have no basis to disagree about surfing a Greenland, but a couple of points. The bow and stern have more volume than the side view would suggest. Comparatively, more volume than the AA by a fair bit. It is a very modern hull masquerading as a Greenland boat is one way to look at it.
"…traditional looks to performance"
Before I owned any sea kayaks I thought the QCC boats looked very neat. When I was buying my first sea kayak, I was able to demo dozens of models. I bought an Elaho DS as it was the one that put the biggest smile on my face.
When I was ready to buy a composite boat and one with more room for camping and better glide, I again demoed dozens of boats. That time I ended up ordering a Valley Aquanaut.
I now have, in addition to my Elaho and Aquanaut, a Romany and a Nordkapp LV. I think every one of my sea kayaks is a good looking boat. I came to like to look of Brit boats AFTER I came to enjoy paddling them.
As for my ww kayaks – well looks REALLY played no part in which boats I have - an I3 and a Diesel. I think old school ww boats are far better looking than newer designs. I’ve owned a couple of old school boats and they were fun. However, for the ww paddling I do my current 2 work better for me than the old school boats I’ve paddled.
Good info
However type of paddle also makes a difference. So a decent wing paddle might enable an ordinary paddler with good form to move to the faster speeds with little or no increase of exertion and take advantage of the drag difference between boats at faster speeds. Depends on what you want to do.
PRIJON YUKON EXPEDITION WITH RUDDER
huge volume, plenty o rocker, with the rudder up turns on a dime to get you out of a jam. I compare it with my t170 which I consider to be a great boat for rought seas. but for overall complete confidence when in the gnarly cold water storms in the Bay of fundy (worlds highest tides) it doesn’t even come close for stability or handling. I bought one that was used in a pond a couple of times for 500 bucks and it is my baby could give away all my other yaks in a heartbeat but never this one. and I have yet to have a problem keeping up with the other sea kayaks.
This is a classic post of what you do in
a boat, but has no real meaning for what others aspire to. No offense meant, it just says the topography you paddle around in Florida doesn’t require a Romany, or some such rockered boat built for tide races and rock gardens. You might like point A to B boats, I have nothing against them, but ask what’s the rush? I prefer boats that excel on a tide race or the narrow, kelp infested channels of a rock garden. You can have your A to B boat in a sea cave. No frickin thanks. I don’t drive 4 hours to a remote destination to hurry through it. I want to see it. Otherwise, what is the point? You may as well join a gym and sit on one of those trainers if you aren’t soaking in the scenery.
Dogmaticus
Yukon
if you havn’t tried it your missing out on a truly great and underated expedition boat, you can live out of this baby.
Look at the boats…boaters are using in
…the rough water you paddle in"
Here are two groups I’ve paddled with in rough water: One was surfing off Rhode Island with 15 paddlers. The boats for this day’s session included a Night Heron, 3 Romanys, 4 Explorers (including one LV), an Avocet, a Pintail, an Anas Acuta, a Vela, a Sultan, a Chatham 16 and a Currituck. The other was Woods Hole with 14 paddlers. Only NDK and Valley boats at this session: 4 Avocets, 5 Explorers (2LVs), 2 Nordkapps, 2 Romanys, and an Aquanaut. More recent rough water groups have included more P&H boats.
What ever turns you on is fine with me
but I’m sorry I raised your dander if that will soothe you any.
Cheers,
JackL
clearly
the 3-5.5 mph drag resistance is more relevant for a touring kayak. Going into a strong head wind slows the kayak down below 5.5 for even the strongest paddlers then they have the disadvantage of increased drag from the longer water line.
It’s all about the length of the water line. Heck, I’ve raced against Epics and beat all but one that wasn’t that much faster and only the long racing kayaks were considerably faster and the only ones to finish ahead of me for the people doing all three legs of the race. I was thrilled to finish 12th place over all and most of the people who beat me over all did really poor in the kayaking. The winner finished 8th in kayaking, and others who got in the top 5 finished 25 in the kayaking.
The Nordlow is more of a rough water boat as well. I usually paddle around an island so encounter some rough conditions, enjoy edging in chop, etc. And quite often enjoy paddling at a slower pace without the increased drag.
you are the pnet poster child
with the photo posts 
lots of them
Maelstrom Vital 166, Avocet LV, NDK Pilgrim, some of the NorthShore kayaks, Tempest 16.5… I’m sure others will add more
Good insight Dong
I agree wholeheartedly, regarding your observation about neutrality. In this discussion, alot is being said about how a boat looks as opposed to how it behaves. Having a boat that isn’t pre-disposed to a certain behavior in textured conditions is a huge advantage IMHO. Another point well made is the idea of volume as opposed to shape. A plumb bow can get as much flotation from volume in the vertical plane as an overhanging bow can get from volume in the horizontal plane. One advantage in the overhanging bow, that I really appreciate, is the fact that as you add weight(cargo) to either bow, you increase wetted surface (drag), but with an overhanging bow you also increase length of waterline.