Pointy ends
– Last Updated: Feb-08-10 6:53 PM EST –
The pointy ends require more area to be able to turn the boat. (They also increase the weight of the boat.)
Thus, there is some cost to that feature.
Who are they?
“I am certain that there are a number of Q700 and Epic 18 owners who enjoy playing with boats. Unfortunately, the ones I’ve met are not.”
Yeah. Who are they? Where are they? I’ve never seen them. Do they really exist?
Rough water boat
Look at the boats the better boaters are using in the rough water you paddle in. More specifically, look at what paddlers who are in your size range are using.
In the NW, we see a lot of Explorers and Romanys in the rough salt water. The Sterling boats are catching on fast, and now more of the Tideraces are coming in. There are other super boats for this type of thing, some of the Seaward, Valley, and P&H models come to mind.
Then buy one of these used. Since you have bought a superb boat, if that one turns out to be not quite right for you, you can easily sell it for close to what you paid for it. Then move on to another choice.
actually
that’s really interesting Salty. At least I hope most people don’t buy Brit style boats for the pointed ends. That’s all I was really saying. My other hard chined sea kayak was also a good all rounder, so no need for me to have two good all rounders. For another kayak I might consider something different. I never thought I would camp out of a kayak so I guess you never know the limits.
we have a few
Epics in our paddle group. One guy is really cool and got a good deal on a used one. These really do well for our group paddles. I not a big fan of rudders but I’ve read post of people out in Hawaii who like rudders for surfing as well as general paddling. We have such great flat water kayaking down here that most kayaks are about the same.
I haven’t paddled one but the Epic 18x seems faster than the Nordlow, and the 16 isn’t as fast.
We don’t swap out boats often but demoing an Epic shouldn’t be a problem at all. I’m hoping to paddle one soon myself.
rough water LOW VOLUME boat?
I’m thinking of lower volume than a romany or anas acuta…?
tahe greenlander
Actually they do in some respects
– Last Updated: Feb-08-10 9:28 PM EST –
You may be different, but folk have an ideal image of a kayak and departure from that hurts sales. So designers make sure to accomodate the aesthetic needs, which BTW are valid. It's subjective stuff. Take a Mariner Coaster for example. Superbly playful sea kayak with as much LWL as many 16 ft Brit type boats. Paddlers who value play performance love the Coaster, but many find it odd looking. It does not have the pointy bow and stern yet far outsurfs and rock gardens many favorite Brit boats. It breaks the paradigm if you will as does the surf tour 14 we made.
Sea kayaking is lots of things to lots of people, and I can tell you all with some authenticity that aesthetics are a major factor in the consumers purchase of a kayak. That's all. BTW I'm working with a Brit company as we speak doing some consulting, so I like and have high regard for the Brit designs. It's all just fun stuff not to be taken too seriously. If you like whatever you have that's awesome. Go places in it!
FYI. about Sterling’s boats.
He had considerable input from Geprge Gronseth on changes in the design which he listened to, as well as some input from myself which apparently mimmicked Georges comments. I’m happy Sterling is doing well and glad he went out on his own Vs working as a contractor for some big manufacturer.
Nice boats!
I think sea kayaking is poised for some new thinking, but it is a more trad. customer base.
Wow
This is such a great discussion.
I have to agree about the whole aesthetics perspective. Most people go for a traditional and/or pleasing look no matter how adventurous they think they are. This applies to everything, houses, cars, etc… Just look at guitars, how have the shapes of guitars changed over the years? Not much except for a few odd models here and there.
Epic 18x seems faster than the Nordlow
It should! The raison d’etre of the 18X is speed.
However, the Nordlow creates less drag below 4.5 knots and is probably faster off the mark. If you have the strength and technique to push the Epic you will certainly get a notably higher end speed. However, you may find for the speeds most folk paddle the Nordlow is less work.
Of the figures I’ve seen, the only ‘fast’ sea kayak whose drag numbers below 4.5 knots are as low as a Nordlow is the Rapier 20.
good info
about the kayaks you mentioned and the reason they didn’t sell as well as anticipated. Yes, and maybe I do know some people who are over rated who paddle the usual traditional style kayak, but most people around here have some expectations about the way a kayak should perform and what they want to accomplish with it.
This was my third kayak. I would strongly recommend anyone test paddling and getting advice from as many people as possible about a particular kayak before they buy.
wow. ok I’m listening
Nice boat! Anyone know what these go for and the differences between the Greenland and the Greenland T?
I suppose
it would depend on what you like to do in “rough water” If you like to go on long expedition type trips with long (over 3 mile) open crossings where tracking in 3-5 foot chop (as opposed to swell) then a longer boat with less rocker but high volume for carrying your stuff may be the way to go–if you like to surf large swells into the beach, then shorter with more rocker–if you like to do shorter day trips in areas with rock gardens, then maybe another type–it really all depends on what you are going to do
I am disappointed
I really do not give a s*&t what a kayak looks like. I would never buy a kayak on that basis. I have no basis for disputing your contention that an “ugly” kayak that performs well would not sell. But it irritates me that I cannot have the best performing kayak available because others want it to conform to their arbitrary standards of beauty. I would really like someone to defend the position that they prefer traditional looks to performance.
well
I think that 99% of us here will never feel the difference in bows between Epic and Nordlow to really give a hoot.
Could it be that we Epic and QCC
owners are so happy with our boats that we have no interest in other boats?
If I had to replace my boat, I would replace it with the same.
Could it be that it does every thing that I want it to, including going fast, being at the tail end of the group when I am touring and exploring, and allowing me to enjoy the ride back through a bunch of three foot white caps that I got caught in unexpectedly.
I have been keeping out of this “rough water boat” issue and until this morning decided not to even read the posts, but I got a private e-mail from a paddler mentioning it so I decided to read the posts
Maybe you should look around for a few more Epic and QCC paddlers and take a tour with them.
Most of them would gladly let you try their boat out, but probably have no desire to try yours
I can name quite a few that feel the exact same about their boats as I do.
And lastly; I have been in a NordkappLV and as much as I enjoyed bouncing around in it, it would be the last boat that I would want for touring.
Cheers,
JackL
thank for including
– Last Updated: Feb-10-10 10:44 AM EST –
the drag numbers for the kayaks being discussed. This is one of the few post that addresses specific attributes about the kayaks, as opposed to generalizations or snide remarks. I like to paddle at about 3-4 mph. It also doesn't catch much wind which is nice. I'm also eager to learn what other people like or dislike about their kayaks. I know some fine people who paddle Epics and QCC but they don't hang out at Pnet.
The Nordlow has been a good all around rough water boat that was good for developing bracing and rolling skills. My roll was already there, but the Nordlow was ideal to improve my bracing. Of course not having a rudder means learning how to control the kayak by edging and the paddle. And most people here at Pnet who have traditional Brit style kayaks like the secure fixed foot pegs or bulkhead for challenging conditions.
In fact Wilso in another discussion you posted some compelling info about the advantages of rudders on long expeditions.