Exactly… and sorry to some of you…
Iceman’s description of use and advantages hits it.
I use my rudder on my Penobscot 16 canoe as a “trim tab” application where it is only slightly lowered into the water when padling. Minimal port or starboard tweak and I paddle on the port or starboard for as long as I want with no loss of stroke for corrections. It does not assist with turning in this mode, just straight away paddling. I lean and/or sweep for turning. Fast this way.
Sidenote: That Jim person added his crap to my post so I had to indulge myself and delete him. Sorry to Jolly, Peter k et al that it deleted you as well. Couldn’t pass it up.
Heck, I even
got mine a kayak - WITH a rudder! Guess they are for girls.
(But I did not see any of the gilrs in the “This is the Sea” video using rudders…)
You need what you need!
you do what you’ve got to do. I’ve done it a time or two myself.
I second Ice man
Cheers,
JackL
sidenote good!
It leaves my original point intact and removes all the other silliness from responders to that point.
Kind of liberating
to flush a pointless argument down the memory hole, and maybe a good reason to resist the urge to get into one next time. Maybe if I can master that I can even work on some self-restraint in the presence of ice cream or almond M&Ms.
but the fact remains
you dont have a clue
this debate is as old as pnet…
…and goes another round every few weeks. Proof positive that opinions are like (well, you know). Mine has always been that some boats (hulls)really need rudders and while you certainly don’t want to use it all the time, don’t punish yourself by doing without if conditions call for it, just because of what others might say/think. If there are “rudders are for wimps” proponents in your group, simply slip on the groucho marx mask before deploying.
you don’t need technique to handle
a broach in four foot surf, (not swell but breaking surf here) nor to reduce a dislocated shoulder but it might be a good idea. LOL*
Not a debate at all really
if you only read the sane posts.
right on the money
paddleinunit. I would go one step further and say that if it feels right, use the darn rudder
Thankfully some of these frequent contibutors’ off topic remarks have been removed. Some remain. Any place you see one of these guys using my name in their posts, just skip it and move on. Apparently, they don’t want anyone who has less than 1000 hours of paddle time to offer opinions. Too bad for them they can’t enforce that.
Two Types of Paddlers Like Rudders
There are two types of paddlers who like rudders: Beginners and Experts.
I hope you all realize I am generalizing, but there is some truth to that statement. Beginners like rudders because they make steering easier. Experts like rudders because they make fast efficient boats track better in all conditions including flat calm. They also allow one to focus on an efficient forward stroke rather than waste enrgy correcting one’s course. There are also some more complicated hydroynamic benefits to rudders in cross winds that allow one to paddle a shorter course due to less sideslipping.
Since the majority of paddlers who give out free advice are intermediates, rudders have a bad reputation. To be fair there are many expert paddlers who’s focus is not paddling as fast or as efficiently as possible. They have other priorities including mastering boat control through leaning and specialized paddle strokes. To these people a rudder is considered cheating or for use in case of emergencies. These paddlers tend to prefer skegs and most have them because they can deploy them without anyone knowing.
These paddlers gravitate toward kayaks that are designed for their approach, hence their hulls are shaped to be very easy to turn by leaning OR to track well. They will not do both really well without also being slow despite all the claims that they will. This is the oft heard maneuverabilty/tracking compromise. For these folks rudders (or skegs) are only for more challenging conditions like quartering winds and their use indicates a weakness of skills. Whether the anti-rudder paddlers lean toward maneuverability or tracking their kayaks will not be as fast nor as efficient as a purer hull properly designed for full time rudder use.
So like every sport, the equipment one selects is a matter of priorities. Within sea kayaking there are many distinct disciplines that need distinct equipment. There are even people completely obsessed with just rolling. These experts know many variations of rolls and a rudder would serve no purpose and could actually be a hindrance.
In most sports the type of equipment that the top athletes use works its way down to the masses. All the best racers use full time rudders - even the olympic paddlers racing on a straight course only in the best of conditions have full time rudders. Then take the opposite extreme - surfskis. These boats need to track well maneuver well and be fast. These guys actually prefer rougher conditions with more wind and waves and they also use rudders full time. So I must ask the question: Why aren’t more typical sea kayakers using rudders full time?
Personally I would like to see more paddlers get into kayaks properly shaped for full time rudder use. They would be faster, go further, and learn better forward stroke technique. They would also be safer through a wider range of conditions. Unfortunately this is not likely to happen because of the negative perception that rudders have. This perception is being perpetuated by the masses who are only passing on what they have been told.
I know I am in the minority and will likely get all kinds of responses from paddlers who think their kayak is maneuverable, tracks well and also is fast without a rudder. Maybe for their level of expectations they are correct. But the only way one can get exceptional speed, maneuvering and tracking in one boat is to get one designed for full-time rudder use.
There will also be the overly cautious who always play the “rudders can break” card. Good rudders rarely break even if they are not cared for. If they do happen to break it is not difficult to paddle a kayak without one to get to the nearest shore or even all the way home. It is a poor argument to scorn rudders for the one time in 10 years that it may fail. I am willing to bet that more people get into trouble because they do not have rudders and find themselves in conditions where they would be safer and might even have more fun if they were proficient with a rudders use.
Well, That makes a LOT of sense
Good post…
now lets see who starts yelling the loudest…
Good post?
Yes, it’sgood in promoting the benefits of rudders - and those I have no reason to argue as they are sound (and are not new to this thread).
However, the post is also very one sided to the point of coming off as saying rudders are really the only way unless you are less skilled or just plain stupid. Simply not true.
Envyabull says (and I do understand the generalization): “There are two types of paddlers who like rudders: Beginners and Experts.”
I would amend that to read: "There are three types of paddlers who like rudders: Beginners, open water touring paddlers who prefer them to skegs (for whatever reason), and racers.
The ignorance (or troll?) regarding skegs in the post I’ll address separately.
Hmm
A bunch of generalization but generally true. heck my second QCC 700 would have a rudder on it if I didn’t have problems with the Housing dragging in the water. Another segment that likes rudders are the ones that like to paddle twisty rivers UP-Stream with long fast boats! Makes cutting the corners waaay easier! and sometimes you need all the power you can get to just go foward, sweeps rob you of some of that power.
Thanks envyabull,
You have explained the point very well.
(I did not have the time and patience to developed such a good essay!)
Regards,
Iceman
I read it a litle diff
– Last Updated: Jun-18-04 2:27 PM EST –
To me, he was saying that this discussion stems from the two main points of views / perspectives of the debators.
Not that he was saying it was good or bad. But then again I read it fast.
As a disclaimer, I have a perception Corona that HAS a rudder that has only been used once while towing a second boat. I personally will not buy anoother boat with a rudder unless it is a surfski or the like. After paddling WW boats, ANY touring boat tracks like a arrow.
p.S. thanks for the Email yesterday. I agree wholeheartedly.
No yelling - but for all Envyabull knows
– Last Updated: Jun-18-04 3:28 PM EST –
about rudders, he doesn't seem to know jack about skegs. This quote pretty much says it all:
"These paddlers tend to prefer skegs and most have them because they can deploy them without anyone knowing."
That of course, is absolute BS. Either an outright troll (just playin with us E?) or just ignorance of skegs in general. Ignorance being a little hard to believe from someone exsposing so much kayaking wisdom here. But then, why the troll?
"Deploy them without anyone knowing"? Who cares?! If appearances mattered - and "no skeg" was somehow cooler - there would be a "skeg up" indicator on their boats. This is comment is just rudder thinking being wrongly applied to skegs, as you can see when a rudder (over-stern - sea kayak) is up. A skeg paddler would never even think this way. Being unseen, we need not be self conscious about it, and are free to use it as we see fit.
"For these folks... their use indicates a weakness of skills"?? I seriously doubt anyone who has a skeg would feel less skillful for using it as intended. It's there for a reason. Same as for rudders. What makes it different is that it can't be over used for steering by beginners (that is not and anti-rudder comment - just an observation), potentially at the expense of other skills.
Envyabull, do me a favor: Get a copy of the "This is the Sea" DVD. Read some expedition accounts. See what skegged boats can do. It may not be racing - but see if you think these folks are "intermediate" and need to get rudder dependent boats before they can become "advanced".
Skegs are very popular with experienced offshore paddlers - for play AND expeditions (where speed/efficiency does matter), not just with rollaholics (though there naturally is overlap between these groups). There are MANY reasons why.
I paddle a modern efficient hull design kayak, not a highly rockered hard chine traditional boat. Envyabull, you have (had?) 2 of them. FYI - It's a design that works well with rudder or skeg. It is very efficient, and while it was not designed to be 100% rudder dependent - it was designed to take advantage of some device to balance weather helm. Were I only interested in racing - I'd have gotten the rudder - but as Envyabull said: "the equipment one selects is a matter of priorities".
I use the skeg so I can, as Envyabull also said, "focus on an efficient forward stroke rather than waste energy correcting one's course" - same as a rudder. In my case, that is almost always to balance for wind/wave conditions (not needed for "tracking" otherwise) - and the weather tends to be mild here so I don't get to use it much over distance.
The rest of Envyabull's post goes on to include many other decent points, but it is only really offering one perspective - that of a race oriented paddler.
The reason you don't see all (particularly open water) sea kayak paddlers with rudders is simple: There is more to sea kayaking than speed and efficiency. Both are important, but not the end of the story.
Yes, boats designed for full time rudder use ARE (generally) faster and more efficient. The are also (generally) more of a handful. They are not automatically safer.
Race boats and skis need rudders as their hulls are designed for efficiency and would be difficult to control without one. Yes, they all have them - but it is not a pure bonus. It is a trade off too, and a big one: Handling/control/stability traded for more speed - with the rudder restoring/improving directional control lost in the streamlining of the hull, but nothing else. How is that safer?
While I am defending skegs - I have no agenda/bias in regards to equipment choices. I have a ruddered ski (obviously, they all are) - I have a skegged sea kayak. The boat I bought my girlfriend (a beginner - probably always) is ruddered.
The choice of rudder/skeg/nothing is not about making appearances. It is also not just skill related. It is all about the one really good line in Envyabull's post, and worth repeating: "the equipment one selects is a matter of priorities".
But that raises the question (and the real reason for any anti-rudder bias toward beginners): How many beginners already clearly have such priorities already, or decent information needed to set them, before they make the choice?
-------
Posted in the interest of adding to this - not getting into a debate over what's better. By now it should be obvious that has never been a valid question due to the range of paddlers, boats, and uses. Except for the omissions and lack of balance regarding skegs - all the rudder info Envyabull posted is dead on.
Yeah, I’m with him on that part. NM
RIGHT ON!
You have said a mouthful with the “perception perpetuated by the masses” comment. I agree wholeheartedly. There are a lot of self proclaimed experts in here who think they know it all and jump at anybody who disagrees or has a legitimate alternate viewpoint.
I don’t think I have seen you post before, but I sure hope you post again. We need more thoughtful, REAL experts contributing here. Thanks.