I was not going to jump in on this but
Envyabulls post is the very well stated truth about rudders and I want to thank him for saying so. This age old fight will always go on but I’ve always used a rudder and they work very well and will do much more than just make a boat track better. Nothing more needs to be said. I say use what suites you.
I’m sure glad…
Kayaks don’t have swing keels vs fixed keels.
or outboard vs inboard…
It’s only a little piece of metal! They both hang below the boat about three feet apart…
Follow Up
I have to admit that I was trolling a bit with my skeg comment. Those of you who have read my ramblings in the past know that I do like to stir the pot a little bit. I do try to take a position and support it strongly.
There have been other discussions on this board about the pros and cons of skegs vs. rudders. Skegs can do the job of balancing lateral forces pretty well. The small number of kayaks I have paddled with skegs did better in all conditions with their skeg down. I am ususally pushing those kayaks near the top of their speed limit. The faster one paddles the more one needs a fin of some sort aft to balance a hulls tendency to weathercock. A simple way to understand this is to think of the bow’s tracking increasing at a faster rate than the stern’s as one paddles at a higher velocity. Ideally a skeg would be a foil shape so it could generate lift - most are not and work by generating drag.
A skeg’s size can be adjusted to suit the speed of the boat and the angle & speed of the wind. The problem with this is that these variables are just that - highly variable. When a puff of wind comes on a bit more skeg may be temporarily needed. I am not aware of a mechanism that allows dynamic deployment of skegs while paddling. I can picture one that is controlled by foot pedals. Might as well get a rudder. I understand that there are paddlers who do not care to be making constant adjustments to a skeg or rudder while under way. They want to set something generally close and are content to make second to second adjustments by leaning and/or with their paddle. This type of paddling, while less efficient, may be more satisfying by providing a more intimate experience with nature.
From a pure efficiency standpoint, rudders are a better choice than skegs. But for the needs of many sea kayakers, a skeg is a good compromise and in my opinion better than nothing. Still I know there are plenty of folks out there who paddle with their skegs down more than they will admit. C’mon, come out of the closet.
I’ll admit that I sometimes have tinges of embarrassment paddling my sea kayak with my rudder deployed. If it wasn’t for the fact that I am blowing past people on my way out of the protected harbor into the ocean to rip through some wind, current and waves I might temporarily lift the rudder. I hope that by seeing me fly on by with my rudder proudly deployed I am doing my small part to change rudders’ bad perception.
Actually
Greyhawk,
I’ve actually been thinking that a small fixed foil near the center of a kayak combined with a small rudder aft would be surprisingly effective. While this combination would offer great maneuverability, the real benefit would be tracking in wind. The boat would hardly sideslip at all allowing one to paddle a shorter distance between two points. Weathercocking would also be dramatically reduced. Given the right conditions a kayak could probably be made to slide to windward due to the foils working together to generate lift. I am still thinking about this and am not even sure how one might benefit from it. I may take my carbon QCC700 and modify it to do some experiments with this concept.
agree mostly but with an exception
"“For these folks rudders (or skegs) are only for more challenging conditions like quartering winds and their use indicates a weakness of skills”"
I have a skegged Q600. I’ve found surfing downwind in a steep following sea to take a bit of practice to work with the skeg, particularly when crossing shoal water with wind opposing the tide. In order to keep from stuffing the bow in the preceding wave you have to go at an angle to the wind wave. With the skeg down that means leaning as hard into the wave as you can to get the bow to try to slide down the wave while the skegged stearn stays locked in the wave face. Do it right and the wave does all the work for forward speed though you’ll be tacking off at an angle to desired course if you’re attempting to go straight downwind. When it doesn’t work the stearn pops out and you broach. I’ve seen beginners/novices dumped in this condition. I dumped once or twice figuring this one out. The first time my brother had his NF Legend in such conditions he spent a lot of time upside down. Maybe if folks are using the skeg for average light wind conditions you’re correct but I’ve found that capitalizing on the prescence of the skeg in conditions requires a bit of practice and doesn’t necessarily reflect a deficit of skill.
Side note: I paddle rudder dependent boats almost exclusively now unless I’m loafing about fishing so I’ve got no bias against rudders but do like the simplicity of a skegged or rudderless boat. At this point I’d probably pick a ruddered performance boat similar to an FW2000 for distance touring just because of the speed aspect.
right
"“There are a lot of self proclaimed experts in here who think they know it all and jump at anybody who disagrees or has a legitimate alternate viewpoint.”"
You’ve had legitimate alternate viewpoints?
That center foil will be lots of fun
in a broach.
I also take issue with your saying that a rudder will improve your strokes. I heartily disagree. A rudder will improve your forward stroke perhaps, but not your sweep, draw, draw on the run, duffek, bow rudder or stern rudder.
If you are not making headway the rudder ain’t doing much, but a good sweep will. Folks who might need to do a quick turn on a wave top in wind might think about that. (A good sweep will turn you fast when the stern is out of the water)A good set of all-round strokes is a must for sea kayaking but anything works on a pond.
As to the skeg thing, I do not need to impress anybody.
As to my being overly cautious I will maintain my equipment methodically. Even a surfski with a rudder when that time comes.
Check the recent sea kayaker article about the paddler who had a rudder jam to one side?
No No No!!!
Now you’re getting dangerously close to the great “double skeg vs. keel and rudder debate” that has been beaten to death in previous threads…
Search… “RM Euro Wing VHS waterline” for more info…
DEPLOYMENT EMBARRASSMENT…
…how about a second (fake) rudder that is always clipped to your deck even if the real one is deployed, enabling the user to ridicule other rudder users even as his own is secretly deployed.
Preference
I guess for now I like kayaks without rudders for the same reason I like sailboards and hang-gliders – using your body is part of the fun. I enjoy leaning/edging/banking. But if I ever have a tandem or a ski it’ll have a rudder, and I’ll be happy to use it.
It could be that I’ve never used a kayak rudder that seemed well-designed or built – they seemed loose, clunky, and detracted from the body/boat/water connection.
Center skeg/foil = drag
This was discussed somewhere a few months back - maybe kayak forum? Good bit of discussion. I’ve seen other references to this too. Worth a search as it will focus/shortcut your efforts.
I believe both the physics and testing revealed one rather big drawback: In countering for crosswinds, the farther from center the smaller the blade can be - the closer to center the bigger it has to be for the same balancing effect. Bigger = more drag. That’s not even counting your addition of a small rudder.
I suppose the small rudder would allow some reduction of the centerboard - but having both is still more drag.
Given your interest in speed/efficiency, I think this sort of outweighs any benefits.
The thing that makes skegs and rudders so useful is they are adjustable. Center foil would not be, unless you put a skeg box ahead of or just behind the seat (probably enough room in a Q700!).
Then there’s the broach already mentioned. Sometimes side slipping is a good thing, as is ability to beach land…
Tuning a skeg
"The small number of kayaks I have paddled with skegs did better in all conditions with their skeg down."
This, in my understanding - is not how a skeg is meant to be used, and will not yield the best results. You are using it as a tracking fin - like a feather on an arrow - or a fixed and centered rudder. This completely misses the skeg’s simple magic.
The point of a skeg is to balance the hull for conditions - not to have a tracking fin. Full skeg should be for downwind running, less for rear quartering, still less for beam, less again for front quartering, and none for headwind.
Adjustable skegs were developed primarily to adjust weather-helm - to maintain desired course in various wind conditions - not really to aid general straight line tracking (they may do this, but rob speed for that purpose).
In this regard, “tracking” and holding course are not the same thing. The former is characteristic of the vessels handling (including the paddlers skill), the latter is something being done with the equipment. Related, but not the same.
Skegs really only assist with the course keeping in wind, if used correctly. Rudders alter both tracking (since they add steering input) and course keeping in wind (since they alter lateral balance). Maybe why rudder users don’t seem to understand skegs?
“A skeg’s size can be adjusted to suit the speed of the boat and the angle & speed of the wind.”
Exactly! Why didn’t you do this? Bet you had to fight those boats a lot using full skeg all the time! No wonder you don’t like them.
“The problem with this is that these variables are just that - highly variable. When a puff of wind comes on a bit more skeg may be temporarily needed. I am not aware of a mechanism that allows dynamic deployment of skegs while paddling.”
When holding a course, true dynamic input is not needed from the skeg. The skeg is set for an average. Prevailing wind plus maybe a bit more if getting frequent gusts. Boat is mostly balanced with minor corrects supplied by body and blade. Slight speed loss, but constant rudder inputs also rob some speed in those conditions.
How do you know how much skeg to use? Simple: enough so you are paddling equally hard on both sides. If you have a GPS or speedmate - it’s whatever gives you best speed for same effort. You will run fastest with correct balance. Too much or too little, and you will have to consistently take more corrective strokes on one side or the other and lose some speed. Can be a subtle difference by feel when it’s pretty close, but the speedo can let you get it tuned even better. Being able to control the skeg well really helps take full advantage of this.
I have rigged my skeg so I can set exactly as I need and adjust it very quickly and easily. It is by no means a set and leave system. I can make as many subtle adjustments as needed.
The limits of the original cord system I had prevented decent control. It favored all or nothing deployment - or some rough wag in between. Waves could work it out of the cleat. In all, rather annoying. All those issues are now gone.
E, All your points seem to be coming more from the idea that a skeg is a deficient rudder, or worse - a tracking fin. They are all very different things. Each has useful functions, but different ones. I think you need to look at a skeg as a skeg.
Greyak - We agree on most points
Greyak,
I read your arguments aginst my points and find that we are saying basically the same thing. You say I am incorrect and then you go ahead and support my very points. I’ve said this to you before too. I am not sure why you seem to be out to discredit me.
I agree with you that skegs are intended to be adjusted for the angle of wind - basically more skeg for further off the wind. However, the other parameter in this complex relationship of forces is the velocity of the kayak. A faster paddler will need more skeg than a slower paddler if all other conditons are the same. Since these kayaks are typically paddled at 3 mph by a typical paddler less skeg is needed than by me pushing boats closer to 6 mph.
Anyway, I think we agree on most points yet I always feel like you are arguing with me. I really do not have a problem with skegs. I understand how they are supposed to work and how they actually work.
One of the major points that you and I have both made more than once on P.net is: To remain laterally balanced kayaks require a change in their underwater profile to suit the conditons: angle to wind, strength of wind, speed of kayak, sea state, etc… A skeg is a great tool for this, however it will require constant inputs from the paddler to keep the boat on course in dynamic conditions. These necessary paddler adjustments take away from forward stroke efficiency, but they could add a greater sense of involvement and control which many paddlers find very satisfying.
While a rudder is more efficient than a skeg, there are also times when strong leans and sweep strokes are more effective than simply pushing the pedal. Someone mentioned while surfing waves while the rudder pops out of the water. I have found that even with the rudder in the water and working to its full potential there are times when one must be aggressive with their paddle to make the boat do what one wants it too.
Rudders and skegs when used correctly are not a crutch and do not alleviate the need to learn good control strokes. Too many people incorrectly believe that a rudder’s purpose is to make steering easier. This is how most beginners use rudders and why they get a bad rap. For good paddlers a rudder is mostly a trim tab.
I often use the rudder to help make fast direction changes while surfing waves - not beach break but ocean swells and wind waves. This helps me catch waves and then stay on them longer. This is a complicated skill that I enjoy practicing and gives me much insight to the joys of surfskis. I can be on the face of a wave and work my way to the right or the left to try to catch a bigger faster wave. I have recorded speeds over 12 mph for good distances in my old heavy QCC700 with rudder this way. This is the early 700 with the cockpit located 8" forward.
In fact, I am heading out right now to see if I can find some waves to play in. Not sure why I am sitting in front of this computer defending myself when the proof is found on the water.
Discredit?
Man, if you think that, you are really missing the point of my posts!
The very fact that I make it a point to agree with you on the bulk of what you’re saying should clue you in that is has nothing to do with that.
You posted some good rudder info, but at the same time also purposely trolled on skegs with some pure BS. I replied to that. Now you seem to agree (as I always did on rudders). No biggie.
I still don’t think you full appreciate what a skeg can do - and from your own descriptions have not been in a good skeg boat or used a skeg to proper effect. As such, maybe you should just skip the skeg comments - but again no biggie. Rudder makes more sense for you. That’s fine.