Self-centering?
Could you please clarify this, are there some sort of tension devices in the works that keep it centered?
When I first read this I thought you might mean it was just sort of aligning itself to the flow of the water, which wouldn’t make it a very effective skeg at all, just a stern drag device.
Mike
external skeg
what’s up with that? i had thought of mounting a rudder on my rob roy and not using the sliding foot pegs. then it would only operate as a non-movable rudder. that necky thing looks like a non-movable rudder that can be deployed or retracted onto the deck?
It really depends …
I think it really depends on the kayak and the conditions. A short kayak on a lake will certainly have a tracking problem which is easily rectified with a simple skeg … turning should not be a problem with the skeg up, and turning with the skeg down will just be harder (or wider). A long kayak will certainly gain tracking (in varying wind conditions also) with a skeg or a rudder. The rudder will make turning easier in the longer kayak. Again the skeg will not help turning … but will help in not turning (tracking).
A rudder will do everything a skeg will do … but with more complexity and weight … especially if the rudder can be lowered in varying amounts like a skeg. The rudder will increase rear deck windage. A skeg will not do everything a rudder will do … but is simpler, lighter, and paddling skills can make up the rest.
A WW kayak needs to turn on a dime … lots of rocker and no skep or rudder. My Dimension R-5 has a bungee on skeg that fits over the stern for when it is used on lakes or slow rivers and it really needs it to track with all its rocker.
An expidition length kayak or tandem benefits greatly from a rudder due to length, weight, and for manuverability.
In between it is a matter of personal preference as either a skeg or rudder will work along with good paddling skills. It is a choice not a debate!
Bob
Can’t Resist Rudder Skeg Posts
Every time the topic comes up there’s a new piece of information I learn about rudders & skegs. Of course it could just be my limited short term memory 
Lou
lalleluia:
Do you like that retractable skeg in your Nighthawk on windy days? I was in some nasty wind yesterday and really appreciated having it. I don’t deploy it very often but the wind came up at the end of a long trip and I was glad to have it handy. I like it better than the rudder I have on another boat.
Perhaps the Nighthawk is a kayak his granddaughter should consider. Definitely nice for smaller paddlers.
I also enjoying reading the posts on this topic. I am trying to decide whether or not to add a rudder to a strip kayak in progress. I’m not asking for advice right now as that is not on point and I don’t want to hijack the thread. Maybe I’ll start this debate again later. 
LOL
Self centering rudder
Yes some rudders use shock cord to pull the slides to the front, when you take your feet off the pegs rudder will return to center. If yours doesn’t have it it’s easy to rig with two aluminum brackets mounted under the slides with a hole drilled to hold the cords, most slides already have a hole in the front (forward end) for the cord.
That IS weird
Is it all or nothing, or fully adjustable as a skeg needs to be?
Rudder As Skeg
The rudder system on the Prijon has just enough tension to hold it in a neutural position on flat water. I paddle barefoot with the balls of my feet pushing on the pegs and my toes in contact with the pedals. The pedals don’t seem to move at all while cruising. It would be interesting to compare the drag of the rudder blade to the gained effective thrust of cruising strokes without correction. For me the added drag is not evident at all, and the boat feels great. I’ve resd posts on this website proclaiming the prijon rudder as the best available. I don’t have a lot of experience with rudders but I sure like this one.
Ok, cool,
as long as there is at least some mechanical force keeping it aligned with the keel you are getting some skeg-like benefit from it. I could imagine it might even be better than a regular skeg since it can go with the flow a little but gently pull you back on course without a lot of turbulence drag.
Seems sort of organic somehow…
Mike
But if you really want to be confused…
…, at least as related to drag/efficiency, consider how a skeg works (by shifting the center of lateral rotation - CLR). See link below for good animated description*.
Once you understand that, and how a fully deployed skeg makes a boat run downwind, consider further that a rudder is like a fully deployed skeg as far as CLR goes - basically creating a leecocking hull. That means in any wind other than a tail wind, you have to apply more turning force to counteract the leecocking the rudder creates, in addition to that needed to counter the actual wind. That extra turning force = extra drag. That makes rudders most efficient in no wind or light winds (when not really needed on most kayaks - and just adding drag), and in tail winds. The two extremes. Of course - there is no way to feel this with the rudder’s steering force overriding everything else in between.
Most rudders are all or nothing as far as amount of blade deployed. Of course you could always put the rudder up in low/no winds - but that’s not really using the rudder. A raised skeg IS using the skeg, as UP is the correct position for headwinds or low/no winds, and blade depth is totally variable for anything else.
Skegs are obviously most efficient in regards to drag when not used (it’s up in headwinds - so not adding to drag when you don’t really need any), a bit more drag in crosswinds (partial skeg = a little more drag, but worth it to restore balance which more than makes up for it speedwise) and most drag in tailwinds (when paddling’s again evenly balanced and the boat’s also getting a push to counteract the slightly increased drag from a fully deployed skeg).
http://www.atlantickayaktours.com/pages/expertcenter/Equipment/Skeg/Skeg-1.shtml
*Click “Flash Lesson” at top right.
Again, both work fine, but a skeg’s pretty amazingly effective/efficient (for lateral balance AND when/how the drag occurs) considering it’s deceptive simplicity.
I started a thread on this
in the usenet paddling newsgroup a few months go. I think Brian N. participated in that. It isn’t clear to me whether a partially deployed side-slipping skeg is creating less drag than a fully-deployed one that “locks” the hull to be travelling in a direction parallel to its keel (quite possibly requiring you to paddle harder on the downwind side to keep it from turning downwind if you don’t want to go that way).
Complicating matters is there are skegs and then there are Skegs. The wimpy little triangle on my Caribou, when fully-deployed, is likely equivalent to a partially-deployed fin or dagger skeg on some other kind of boat.
Not many absolutes here, that’s why this discussion can never come to a resolution.
Mike
Rudder or Skeg
Whew! To answer a few questions, the Necky Zoar Sport LV is their old Chelan which is just a lower volume Zoar Sport.
Marissa’s paddling would be day paddinlg on fairly quiet lakes with 1 foot swells being about max.
I’ll be fowarding all the comments to her at college and I’ll let her make the choice.
When I made the post I was hoping to be able to fit in a Zoar Sport (Same as hers but bigger), but alas, try as I might grandpa will not be able to sit bolt upright in a decked kayak. I was hoping stretching would do it, but after a week I’m still quite sore and just able to touch my knees with legs straight. I am therefore thinking of a sit on top with a difference between the feet and the seat height. (Or maybe a canoe.)
Thanks much for all the responses folks.
Kent
Rudder vs. skeg
Go with the skeg for sure. New kayakers tend to overcontrol the rudder, which makes them weave around even more. A skeg is incredibly simple, and allows the boat to be very maneuverable with skeg up, but to track straight in all wind conditions depending on how far down you put it. The invisible underwater skegs like the one on my Current Designs Gulfstream are fantastic–no pulling on a balky rope.
You should not…
… need to fully deploy the skeg for anything BUT downwind runs (unless your skeg is wholly inadequate for your boat). Of course you’d have to fight the turning downwind induced by a full skeg! Comparing partial or full skeg deployment in same conditions is not appropriate. No reason to don’t do that.
But that does apply to a rudder - which IS fully deployed for all uses. That was my point - that the rudder imparts some leecocking element (except in boats specifically designed to be balanced for rudder, but I’m still talking cases where there is the option for either). This, if running crosswind, means the blade would have to counter with even more turning force, robbing more efficiency (like having more skeg down than needed for balance).
A caution
SOT may be great for getting on and off for the less flexible. Difinitely try some.
Be careful though, beacase if you can’t sit upright and end up paddling in a leaned back position (made more likely with big tall back cushy SOT seat to support you) you may trash your lower back. It wil be largely imobilized and take all the forces. That = stiff + sore, and worse over time.
Sitting up and rotating torso keeps things loose and the load spread throughout the torso muscles.
FWIW
Yes, but think about what
a partially-deployed skeg is “balancing” in a cross-wind situation. It is making the back of the boat side-slip the same amount as the front of the boat. So the skeg is not exactly following the direction of water flow. There’s going to be some turbulence and drag because of that.
Contrast that to a deeper rudder blade that has to be turned a bit downwind to allow the same balanced sideslip of the hull. But at least the rudder itself is more parallel to the water flow than the skeg is.
Which of those two scenarios creates the most drag? Not obvious to me at all.
As an aside, I was finally out in conditions Sunday, strong wind (estimate 25+ occasionally) but not very big waves so I was comfortable going crosswind. I found that the Caribou did indeed have enough skeg to give it some lee helm when fully deployed. First time I’d felt that happen.
Mike
Side slip and turbulence
Yes, more variable to confuse things. Easier to look at individually to think about.
Side slip is also related to forward speed. The faster you go the less the angle. so less turbulence induced drag and slightly more frictional drag. Slower there is more side slip so maybe more turbulence, maybe not - and less frictional drag.
Somewhat irrelevant - as using the amount of skeg needed to balance also allows the best possible speed. Less than needed may mean a little less drag - but a lot more corrective strokes.
Next time you play, bring a GPS. You’ll be pleased to see that little bit of drag is more than worth it in terms of actual speeds. Also seeing the speed changes can help fine tune the skeg even more than even strokes L/R. Can’t really feel the more subtle speed differences reliably, and even when you think you do - it’s deceptive. GPS quickly proves that balanced is best for comfort AND speed.
Rudder drivers (rightly) assume this net efficiency gain, but some skeg drivers seem to assume only added drag and reduced speeds - when speeds actually come up with a skeg too.
I take a GPS with me every
– Last Updated: Sep-22-04 8:38 PM EST –
time I go out there. But we are talking mere tenths of mph here (and maybe even less than that) and my GPS jumps around too much in its speed indication at that resolution to draw much of a conclusion. I believe it would take a timed distance (and just try to eliminate other variable doing that) to really figure it out for sure.
My original premise was that fully-deploying the skeg and using some lee-helm correcting strokes on the downwind side would be the way to go, ensuring that the keel stayed aligned with the water flow. This was partly based on the Caribou having such weak lee helm with the skeg all the way down (thus not requiring much correction) in any situation I'd encountered so far.
I have to admit that, though I'd ruled out getting a ruddered boat when I was kayak shopping, due to the usual reasons (complexity, aesthetics (love that pointy Caribou stern) and spongy pedals, etc.) I'm not so sure my next boat, if there is a next boat, won't have one. I really don't like fumbling with the skeg control, and don't like fighting the Caribou in windy conditions without it. Maybe a foot-operated skeg control is the answer...
Mike
Greyak and Mhackett
You guys are making me want to buy an outboard motor. Way too technical, as I don’t bring my laptop out in my kayak with me. Just having some fun, no offense meant.
I got a similar reaction
last time I tried to discuss this. Slow learner, I guess…
Mike