definitely a rudder
Get a boat with a rudder. If you don’t need it, raise it out of the water. However, if you find you need it, at least you have it. I paddle with a rudder, but have no problem without. Most of my paddling is on slow rivers, and lakes, and I almost always use the rudder. I use it for steering as well. Don’t believe all the “you can’t be really good at kayaking if you have a rudder” stuff. After literally thousands of miles of paddling, I would not go without one. Having it if you need it is far better than needing it and not having it.
Now I will sit back and wait for the inevitable rebuttal from the non rudder crowd…
here it is:
One is more comfortable paddling what one is used to paddling. Why do some of you need one approach to be better than the other? The benefits and drawbacks to rudders vs. skegs vs. nothing have been discussed ad nauseum and proven nothing.
I paddle with skeg only because of my personal preference and because I can control my boat just fine. And my boat was designed without a rudder in the design equation.
Sheesh.
I am smart.
– Last Updated: Jun-13-09 11:03 AM EST –
But not smart enough to stay out of these silly diatribes. Your commentary about rescuing goobers who paddle ruddered boats irks me as simplistic ego. I like your stuff as a rule, but there seems this need to differentiate yourself as a superior paddler with immense handling skills, and to assume that a paddler in a ruddered kayak is a newbie goob in need of your oversight.
If a customer likes a rudder on their little Tsunami who cares! For "THEM" it may add a lot of value. For example, some like to fish as they drift down channels and a rudder does help. A light kid in that boat in a stiff breeze may find the rudder helpful.
I see it as just a tool with some possitives for some and negative for others. You seem to view it as a crutch that will prevent learning which assumes everyone want's from paddling what you do. People have good choices.
Step back, re-read your posts, then mine with an open mind. Then open up wilso's link to Paul Caffyn's site and read his material. I just disagree with your polarized stance on this. Rudders have their place and are good tools in many applications, even for awesome paddlers.
This boy aint buying your thoughts on rudders. Disagreement is OK.
the ultimate solution
i can’t believe no one has brought this revolutionary design up yet.
ta da!
the debate is over. have your cake and eat it to.
http://www.kari-tek.co.uk/SkegSystems.html
the Kari tek skeg rudder system. end of story.
like to see one
i would like to see one in operation
A few have been done
Heck, Necky prototyped a great little “scudder” some years back that R&D designed. Drop it down, then it would pivot back and forth if desired. Also would self center and retract if hit hard, or could be retracted from any pivot angle. Cool unit but deemed to costly to add.
i’m being the devils advocate
naturally. i haven’t seen one of these, and all i hear about it is skepticism which i share, but i would like to try one. seems to be very little enthusiasm about this product, and i’ve seen no reviews. seems strange.
Yeah,
In some ways I think these engineered accessories are cool from a technical aspect, but they can go beyond pratical application.
We’ve all seen gimmicky seats and systems and some are pretty cool and some customers enjoy that stuff. My sense is that a lot of the whiz bang stuff appeals to the newer paddler whilst the experienced boater leans toward simplicity and overall boat handling characteristics Vs shelf appeal “bling”.
Guess it all depends on the target audience.
Strange how?
– Last Updated: Jun-13-09 2:28 PM EST –
(edit to correct price)
Three strikes right off the bat for US market:
It's expensive. Over $560 US, and even if you got them to drop the VAT for export there's still shipping.
It's complicated, relatively speaking. Lots of parts, new/unfamiliar operating system, need to be able/willing to do glass work). US market likes having techy bling, but not working to install it.
No US dealer or real market presence to allow checking it out before buying. Is anyone even equipping kayaks bound for US dealers with this?
In all it makes them a curiosity at best this side of the pond - and quite logical that few would take the leap of faith and investment needed to get one and provide you with your reviews/enthusiasm. I'm sure that, to what extent it exists, can be found on various UK boards. Check those out. If you want a US review and buzz best pony up and get one so you can review it for the rest of us! I suspect that just takes us back to at least one of the three strikes. *L*
Is it cool? Sure, up to a point. Does it function any better than the crude SS/cable scudder I saw on a South African sea kayak a few years ago? Maybe. 3X better? As field repairable? Hmmm....
I like to paint them
and put Peter Max like flowers on them.
racers
Racers use rudders because of the stroke they use and because it takes time to edge a kayak to turn and that loses races. Most racers do not use rudders for touring.
Bill H.
good point
– Last Updated: Jun-15-09 10:02 AM EST –
I'm thinking of the guy in the shop when I bought my explorer, who asked Stan Chladek if he could get the same model but with a rudder. Someone at a big box had apparently told him he needed one.
Tsunami 145 W/Rudder
I love my Tusnami 145 w/Rudder.
I only use my rudder when fishing so I am hands free, truthfully the Tusnami 145 really is a great boat with out the rudder most of the time I feel it was a waiste of money but I like gadgets and gizmos.
I don’t use a rudder when paddling lakes,rivers,ect. The boat tracks straight in all conditions no need for the rudder,
I like it but rarely use it.
Be Safe
Eric G
Did I mention I Looovvveee my Tsunami 145.
skudder
i’ve spoken with a couple of designers who have been working on them, one is in production. it’s a remarkably complex little gizmo, and the hull has to be modified to accommodate the raising and lowering fulcrums and angles. Alex Matthews has played at length with designing one, and reckon’s it’s next to impossible to do in a simple and robust format. i’m interested in learning to paddle with a rudder, and will add one to a KS Vivianne when it arrives. i feel it’s time to advance and expand my understanding of kayak paddling by getting a big fast boat, and learn to use a rudder.
or surf decals
Image and marketing
– Last Updated: Jun-15-09 4:55 PM EST –
A lot of the reason that many kayak manufacturers went or incorporated skegs into their line was image. The image was that more advanced kayakers used boats with skegs. Mike Necker wrote an article years back about the superiority of rudders. Several years later they introduced models with skegs to capture that Valley British market and tried to up the Necky image of their product line.
If you want a NDK, Valley, Impex, P & H - no choice- skegs. QCC - rudders. So in some ways if you like a hull and fit, there's not options on the skeg or rudder.
Alex paddled the Necky prototype and
from what I hear liked it. Not particularly complicated, and pretty tough. The version he used was a one-off proto. In reality it would have been 4 simple injection molded parts and a spring and cord. An insert for the tooling would likewise be simple.
Marketing at the time said “too expensive” so it got shelved. Kudos to Mathews if he takes it a step further!
Jay, that is not really accurate
It’s Mike Neckar BTW, and yes, he likes rudders, and yes he designed kayaks that worked well with a rudder, and some that worked well with it up or down, and some that didn’t do so well no matter (like a lot of companies. Mike put out a lot of product.
The skeg which you refer to was on the Elaho and was a very different (not as good as Valley IMO)design. The other was a super simple stern flip down skeg that attached to the aft squared off end of a couple of recreational boats.
Neither was Neckar’s attempt to compete with Valley, rather a quick and dirty (in Elaho’s case)way to give a super playful little boat some directional stability, not compete with Valley.
The closest Neckar came to directly addressing the Brit type market was the Arluk 1.8 with ocean cockpit. Ken Fink had some input on that boat and it was intended to play to the Nordkapp etc enthusiast. Note, that it had a rudder, not a skeg.
FYI.
"super playful little boat "
– Last Updated: Jun-15-09 5:27 PM EST –
The original Elaho is that and more. We use it as a 'schooling' boat and I worked with a BCU coach last autumn who used a composite Elaho DS in all the ways many use Romanys. There is also not boat I've been in that static braces better or more flexibly. It is a lively boat with whitewater-like outfitting and a great rolling recess (as well as a Valley day hatch)!
The main complaint I'd heard from accomplished paddlers (and share) about the Elaho DS is that the metal skeg is exposed when retracted.
I've often wondered if the original Elaho was too much of a niche boat for Necky. Though, I suppose the Chatham 16 supplanted the orignal Elaho as it is better mannered and does well everything the Elaho did well without weathercocking quite so severely ;-)
no choice- … QCC - rudders
Not true Jay. You can order a QCC with skeg (I have one) or rudder (my wife has one), or neither.