are there expert yakers out there…
“are there expert yakers out there who also dislike rudders?”
The answer to this question obviously is ‘yes’
However, as is also obvious, there are expert kayakers who prefer rudders.
The most accurate answer to the question of rudders is “it depends.”
I think for the boat the OP is considering, a rudder is likely overkill.
& yet we are both here ;-D nfm
Spellin’
I also severly lack in spellin’ skills on a computer.
Do you surf w/ruddered boat?
Just a curiousity question. I know some who would consider surf to be a risky thing in surf in terms of likely injuries. And your profile lists surf.
I’m also guessing you don’t try a lot of cowboy re-entries with a drysuit, but you are in warmer climes.
rudders in following seas?
wilsoj2 posted a great link to Paul Caffyn’s testimony to rudders. One of the benefits he claimed was control in surfing following seas.
Does anyone have experiences to share regarding using a rudder in these conditions?
Nostalgia 
Not always so good
as the rudder tends to be hanging in mid air just when you need it most…
Tahitian skis?
– Last Updated: Jun-12-09 12:12 PM EST –
"except the old school rudderless Tahitian skis and such"
So, here's an even more extreme exception.
Do you have a reference to what you are talking about?
It might be interesting to see.
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"Can't even generalize within the specialized stuff!"
So, what percentage of surf skis (-actual- surf skis) have rudders? If most of them do, then the generalization stands.
======================
If you are talking about outrigger canoes, those are all over French Polynesia. Rudders or not, they aren't surf skis or kayaks. They also typically have outriggers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outrigger_canoe
new zealand clubs
google new zealand kayaking clubs and reference, or even just ask on one of their message boards their ideas about kayaks, skegs and rudders.
They have a great deal of experience in very diverse waters and conditions and a great kayaking tradition. You might be surprised to find that they do not necessarily follow Paul C.'s ideas, but rather talk in terms of what you are trying to accomplish and what is best to do so.
I found it very enlightening. By the way, in their environment they invariably have built in electric or very efficient one hand bilge pumps, kayak designs with a fair amount more reserve than many of our models, etc.
Confusing exceptions
– Last Updated: Jun-12-09 11:56 AM EST –
"But you triggered a peeve of mine with the ignorant assertion that surfskis are so totally different from other kayaks that what works for skis is totally irrelevant to what works for other kayaks. It isn't."
I didn't say "totally".
It's not "totally irrelevant" nor is it "totally different". It's just confusing and unhelpful to chuck in "surf skis" into this conversation without any details.
Merely mentioning "surf skis" isn't useful.
"Try spending some time in skis. You'll likely find that ski paddling enriches your experience in other kayaks, and vice versa."
I have no doubt about that. The same thing is true for white water kayaks (which don't have rudders) but saying that would just be confusing too.
You’re generally smarter than that, Salt
You’re generally smarter than that, Salty.
What’s the deal with the ad-hominem attack?
How about trying to explain how surf skis having rudders is relevant to a rudder on a Tsunami.
Mostly an OC1/surfing thing…
…as far as I know. I hear about skis along these lines every once in a while on Yahoo Surf Ski Group, etc. Pretty rarely Tahitian ski (or anything) is mentioned, maybe it’s just OC1 crosstalk/confusion. If you’re really interested ask there or Surfski.info.
good to see SOMEONE’S paying attention
Yes!!!
That’s what they’re really good for. True that overstern is less than an ideal solution, but if the stern is in the air the bow is in the trough and there’s not all that much steering to be done at that instant anyway. But when you’re almost but not quite onto a wave, or trying to milk all you can out of a marginal one, being able to use the rudder to keep the stern where it belongs while using the paddle to apply power will often make the difference between staying on the wave and dropping off.
Your assertion was:
“The fact that rudders are used on these very specialized and hard-to-paddle boats is largely irrelevant to the general utility of rudders.”
That just isn’t true. I’ve used rudders on a 15’X26" OK Scupper Pro, a 16’X22" Necky Elaho, and a 21’X17" Epic V10, among others. On any of those boats, the rudder can (1) take care of most course-holding tweaks to let all the paddle energy go to propulsion, and (2) keep the stern in line in quartering/following seas. As it happens, I hate the rudder on the Necky because it’s trying, with limited success, to compensate for a hull design that doesn’t work especially well. The Scupper is fun with or without, and it’s mostly a guest boat at this point anyway. The V10 is all about the kind of paddling that rudders are really good for. But any of those three boats work pretty much the same way, with or without rudder, the biggest difference being that that !@#$ Elaho is a pig with seas in the stern quarters.
how about the integral keel rudder?
For lack of a better description. I realize this thread is straying from the OP’s prupose, but there is an aussie or kiwi made kayak, name of which escapes me, that has a moveable section of the keel at the stern. When not turned it looks like the keel of a norkapp HM. This always struck me as a novel solution except that it doesn’t have a lot of depth.
I had a Dagger Atlantis with one
of those. It worked well on flattish water. The main advantage IMO was that it firmly locked the foot peddles in position when it was locked. In even light-moderate following seas it spent as much time out of the water as in the water.
Dr. , Eddylines marketing on that one
cracked me up …
They were really pushing the limits with statements something to the effect of
built in skeg
nothing else needed
The very next year the boats had skegs.
“that…base likes rudders”
– Last Updated: Jun-12-09 5:01 PM EST –
The first time we showed up on the Cove in Maine with our initial Brit boats (Valley Aquanaut & NDK Explorer LV) the first question we were asked by someone was why no rudders? She was convinced that serious sea kayaks had rudders.
We've now been responsible for so many non-ruddered sea kayaks showing up at the Cove that none of the regulars are surprised to see a real sea kayak without a rudder.
Heck, they've even grown accustomed to seeing people do "the flippy thing" (rolling) in the Cove ;-)
Some Experience
A couple years back my buddy and I were racing to shore with a stiff breeze at our backs. Nice wind waves to surf in the sound. He was in a ruddered QCC 700 and I was in my skegged Tempest 165. I’d say we were catching and surfing an equal number of waves and working equally hard to keep from broaching. Another buddy was in a kayak that was too big for him. He couldn’t hang. I guess what we needed was a kayaker of similar ability in a no-skeg no-rudder boat to get the full comparison.