Rudders kind of suck for rescues!
Rudders kind of suck for rescues!
yes they do
During a rescue class a year or so back, that included two students w. Carolina 14s, a person got their hand slit open trying to turn the boat over while holding it near the stern.
And, as Celia mentioned, the cowboy scramble gets a little more complicated. In fairness someone who gets a good heave onto the rear deck and throws their leg up and over w. sufficient clearance can scramble rudder or not. Not everyone is built that way, tho.
I also noted when we were practicing paddling w. a swimmer on the stern that people were a little more wary of mounting a ruddered boat.
Turning “newbies”
– Last Updated: Jun-11-09 4:28 PM EST –
"My understanding is that a rudder, in cases such as the OPs, helps more in maintaining course than in turning."
Yes.
"But in reading the posts I'm not seeing this (or maybe I'm the one who's misinformed)."
A few posts have said that the primary purpose of a rudder is to keep the boat on course.
You can often turn a boat quicker in a shorter radius using a paddle than with a rudder.
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As far as I can tell, most people who don't really know anything about kayaking see rudders as necessary for turning before they walk into the store.
Boat control is a skill that takes some time and practice to get. While not everybody is interested in that (it's a free country), I think that boat control is important.
I'm going to assume that anybody asking questions here has an interest (or should have an interest) in boat control!
If somebody has a reasonable amount of boat control (and I don't have to rescue them), I don't care whether or not they use a rudder!
Surf skis
"as must Oscar Chalupski, Greg Barton "
These guys are using surf skis, which are not typical boats. The fact that rudders are used on these very specialized and hard-to-paddle boats is largely irrelevant to the general utility of rudders.
Rudders require coordination…
Rudder require coordination…which I am severly lackign in. Skegs rule for the uncoordinated.
But if I were to have a rudder it would be the new for 2009 Epic rudder, which of course requires an Epic Kayak.
Also, the new for 2009 Warren Lightcraft Rudder is pretty cool too.
No it isn’t
Surfskis are just kayaks that are a little longer and skinnier than most. A rudder on a ski is doing the same thing a rudder on any other kayak is doing.
Not wrestling the boat…
I wanted to note that I too find that the Nordlow is a dream to control in conditions. I’ve paddled a number of boats with which I’ve had to wrestle when the winds and seas picked-up. The Nordlow fells extraordinarily neutral in such situations.
Sailing is another exception
Very few people are going to sail their kayaks.
If you are going to sail your kayak, get a rudder!
A lot longer and a lot skinnier
– Last Updated: Jun-11-09 4:40 PM EST –
How, exactly, does talking about a fairly unusual and hard to paddle boat help the majority of people decide whether or not a rudder is useful to them?
Drag cars are just cars too. How would talking about specialized equipment that is used on drag cars help people choose a normal car?
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They are a lot longer and a lot skinnier.
They are boats for experts (highly skilled paddlers).
Anybody buying a surf ski isn't going to be asking whether or not to get a rudder with it!
The fact that they always come with a rudder has very little to do with whether somebody should get a rudder for a 14.5 foot Tsunami!
Maybe, the rule is that you have to use a wing paddle if you have a rudder!
Based, no doubt, on your extensive
– Last Updated: Jun-11-09 4:48 PM EST –
experience paddling skis? But still wrong. If you put in the time getting comfortable in a ski, you'll find that it's Galas to Gravensteins, not apples to oranges.
It's not the personal preferences in these threads that annoy, it's the ignorance of the justifications for why one's personal preference is the One True Way.
Maybe also worth noting that the dimensions of that Tsunami you're talking about compare to the dimensions of a Nordkapp about like the Nordkapp compares to a V10.
Amen
If not a rudder, a skeg. Both are safety devices. My boat came with a retractible skeg. Why? Because it weathercocks.
Not too bad, but you flunked
– Last Updated: Jun-12-09 5:23 AM EST –
You got Number 1, 2, 4, and 6 wrong.
You got Number 3 right.
On number 5, I'm glad you know about the surf ski guys
On Number 7: who the hell is he ???
It never ceases to amaze me how all the non rudder users know so much about rudders.
Cheers,
jackL
Surf skis
– Last Updated: Jun-11-09 7:54 PM EST –
Don't all surf skis have rudders?
Many other kayaks do not. Some have rudders, some have skegs, some have neither.
Does that mean all kayaks should have rudders?
You should at least try to make an attempt to explain how the fact that all surf skis have rudders is relevant to the original poster. Keep in mind that there are many, many other kayaks without rudders he (and most everybody else) is more likely to chose before he even considers a surf ski.
It appears that the only reason people mentioned surf skis is because they have rudders. This provides no insight to anything since everybody knows there are kayaks with rudders.
The Nordkapp is an odd case because people (Paul Caffyn, for one) have put rudders on them. And a Nordkapp is more like a Tsunami than a surf ski is.
"it's the ignorance of the justifications for why one's personal preference is the One True Way"
I completely don't care what people use (as long as I don't have to rescue them) as long as they learn boat control. (People are free not to learn boat control and I'm free to think that not learning boat control is not a good thing!)
Not sure what you’re trying to argue
But you triggered a peeve of mine with the ignorant assertion that surfskis are so totally different from other kayaks that what works for skis is totally irrelevant to what works for other kayaks. It isn’t. Try spending some time in skis. You’ll likely find that ski paddling enriches your experience in other kayaks, and vice versa. That’s all I’m saying. I don’t care whether you like rudders or not, I’d just rather you not try to justify your dislike with misinformation.
He wants to feel superior
– Last Updated: Jun-11-09 10:58 PM EST –
Agree
It’s just as disingenuous to assume a non-ruddered kayak is less capable. Let’s not confuse bad sales support with facts. Rudders cost a lot on a boat so, i don’t think they are casualy added to the BOM without careful thought of the targeted customer and their preferences, needs.
NJ
– Last Updated: Jun-11-09 11:52 PM EST –
I know a lot of rudderd kayakers that you wouldn't need to rescue. Hell, you wouldn't even be anywhere near them!:)
Amusing.
And because it weathercocks…
… (on purpose, as do a great many sea kayaks) the skeg will be able to work as intended (from weather to lee and everything in between). On a neutral boat a skeg would only get you from beam to lee (getting into the wind can be tough), and a skeg on a boat that leecocks would be a one way nightmare in wind - just adding to the already dangerous situation by further locking in.
Depends on the rudder…
… and recovery method too.
Lots of folks here making good points, but it’s still a silly thread.
Somewhere in all that rot…
… is one small point that was not made clear, about the difference between kayaks with the rudder as an optional accessory like OP is asking about, and those designed to have them like skis*.
They work the same when on and deployed, but the kayak’s design intent and relation to the rudder is different.
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- OK, except the old school rudderless Tahitian skis and such… Can’t even generalize within the specialized stuff! L