that is finally a response
that makes sense.
Paddlinunit sums it up on what should be common sense. The meek approach of “just stay out of their way” is bogus.
If nobody objects to bad behavior then it becomes common practice.
In saying that, I don’t mean that one should fight with his/her little kayak against a powerboater… we know what the outcome will be.
More likely trying to have possibly documented evidence that could incriminate the offenders.
Trust me: nothing makes bullies think twice when you point a digital camera at them.
Gnarlydog
It helps put the advice into context
… a bit better if you separate the ramp issues and on water issues.
Skill may or may not have all that much to do with the business at the ramp, but it certainly does pertain to the rest of the tale as related by the OP.
The account was clear and well written. It’s pretty hard to read anything but them (certainly the wife)being wake challenged, not able to fully control her kayak, and understandably being very uncomfortable around the local traffic as a natural consequence.
As for the on water issues, suggesting someone learn to handle wakes from all angles and learn to enjoy them, and have recovery skill that remove fear of capsize, is the best advice anyone can give. Without that, everything other than a warm shallow flat pond on a windless day is going to pose problems.
Been there, done that. This should be a short lived period in any paddlers progression. Can’t imagine leaving it there while continuing to fear/rage at others about their wakes/speed - when some seat time and work on basic recoveries makes most of this stuff a non-issue - and even fun.
Tell me how it’s NOT about skill?
When there is a skill gap between two paddlers, the more experience one should focus on bringing the other up to speed and keeping them in comfortable/manageable learning situations as their capacities increased. If they prefer not to progress like this, then keep them on really mild waters -or don’t drag them along. Paddling ain’t for everybody.
I can’t help noticing over the years that operating with other craft seems to be a much less dramatic issue for bigger water/skill focused paddlers (even those not on big waters and with limited skills) than for the more small water/rec minded types (regardless of their gear). It’s largely a mindset thing. Sort of the way WW types see rolling as basic while it’s still rare among other paddlers.
Not a judgment in any way, just an observation from many years here. It’s sure to get someone’s skirt bunched up anyway. It’s never popular to suggest people can fix most all of this stuff themselves (as they cause much of it themselves), and enjoy paddling even more. More fun to point fingers and rant about the evil motor boats, swap tales or terror, and commiserate about being mistreated/persecuted.
Here I go again…
There seems to be an elitist attitude by some on this board that unless you can do it all (their way) you’re kind of wasting space in the water.
It must get real hard staying upright in their boats with those gigantic heads!
makes all sense
– Last Updated: Aug-06-08 2:45 AM EST –
Greyak, but what skills should one have to avoid a collision with a powerboater... sudden submarineing? (your quote: "Tell me how it's NOT about skill?")
I think there is mention of the reckless operating of the powerboat around blind corners.
It's not unheard of small crafts being hit and injuries sustained caused by careless powerboater.
Not much difference then an 18 wheeler bulling on the freeway. Do nothing and you will give him/her just more freedom to do so. I believe that unreported incidents will perpetuate that behaviour.
Gnarlydog
It varies, but some ramps, especially
state built ramps are constructed with funds from boat registration and fishing licenses. Power boaters can get territorial about ramps and feel others have no right. I’ve seen big arguments between different types of power boaters over the ramps, especially bass fishermen and wake board boaters. Interesting dynamics at ramps during high use times. I prefer to avoid them when possible.
Close calls
Actual serious collisions (injury/death/major damage) with canoes and kayaks are quite rare - I know of maybe 4 in last 6-7 years, and 3 of those were at night.
The so called “close calls” are very subjective. Beginners and the wake averse seem to have a lot of close calls. Those with a bit more experience seem to have very few, if any.
The difference is perspective.
When wakes are a problem, and you’re not competent and confident in you ability to handle your kayak (in terms of maneuvering and handling wakes) - every boat offers some potential challenge/difficulty so they tend to seem very close.
If you are comfortable in wakes, and can easily keep you kayak on course in textured water, and can maneuver easily you quickly things seem quite different. You realize you can be out of just about any impact zone in a stroke or two (if the ship’s bigger than that you really weren’t paying attention and probably are somewhere you shouldn’t be). “Close call” means you could hit it with your paddle.
Point is to be focused on what you’re doing in relation to everything around you - instead of expecting the other boaters to take action. Hopefully they have the same attitude and are watching out - and most are - but why chance it? Simpler to assume you’re invisible and act accordingly. This has little to do with who’s right/wrong BS, and everything to do with common sense.
Sure, some things can go wrong regardless - and being run over is always a possibility to keep in mind - but so are lightning strikes and shark attacks. Difference is learning to be safer around boats is easy and a littel defense offers a very effective defense - and changes the entire experience. An ounce of prevention and all that.
No more elitist
– Last Updated: Aug-06-08 9:33 AM EST –
than saying you shouldn't take a new 16-year-old driver through Boston rush-hour traffic.
If you're not comfortable in the conditions -- natural or manmade -- don't go. If you aren't comfortable with wakes, paddle where they aren't an issue. There are a lot of conditions and places I won't paddle in.
There's nothing wrong with telling someone that they need more skill and/or experience to do something safely.
Perspective
– Last Updated: Aug-06-08 9:46 AM EST –
Well said.
With experience and increased comfort, being waked can go from "Oh s___! You a_______!" to "Yeehah! Surfing time!"
With experience, you realize that boats zooming by on a plane often make less wake than the ones who slow down.
I have to agree with others here about
paddling in conditions that you are not comfortable with. There have been some very good posts in this thread, comfort level, conditions and perception of the situation and how they change as your level of paddling raises. My wife and I used to be nervous around wakes and now are bummed out when a boat slows down and does not through a wake. I would suggest that they paddle in another area and take some lessons and increase their skills and then they will be in for even more fun.
I certainly agree…
…with Greyak & Angstrom that you need to develop skills so that dealing with powerboaters is not a stressfull event but I still take issue with the suggestion that once you have attained that skill level, rude powerboaters will only add to your enjoyment. And I would like to answer Greyak’s question: “tell me how it’s not about experience.”
It’s just more about courtesy & respect.
Let me put it this way:
I’ve been driving for 38 years. I may not be the best driver on the road, but I feel pretty comfortable and confident in virtually any traffic situation.
Nevertheless, it upsets me when other motorists display rude & inconsiderate behavior.
I just can’t understand why so many drivers tailgate & weave in & out of lanes, pass like they want to cause damage to your car, etc.
I have always had a problem on this forum that whenever anyone complains about rude powerboaters the responses are almost invariably “you’re too inexperienced.”
There is right & wrong behavior & I think the OP had a valid complaint & did not deserve a lecture on being inexperienced.
Agreed
Some behavior, like making wakes, appears rude and/or dangerous if you aren’t comfortable with it. Other behavior really is just plain rude and/or dangerous. The original post seemed to have descriptions of both, and some of the responses weren’t clear which was being addressed.
Right & Wrong but not pressing my luck
Another 38 yr driver here. I park in the US Navy-Marine Corps stadium parking lot and walk across the street to my office. There is a large - easily seen crosswalk, and large signs (no flashing lights…). My normal routine is to jog across the road on the crosswalk. Now, I’m carrying a laptop, files, Igloo lunch cooler older than most drivers, and a duffel with clothing change. I don’t lollygag crossing the road. About once every two weeks, some jackass will accelerate toward me, lay on the horn & blast through through the crosswalk. Rude, obnoxious behavior? You bet! But I just write it off as the way it is. When I was young, I would have challenged them, but what’s the point? It doesn’t matter if I have the right of way when the aggressor has 200-300 hp and 2 tons of steel. Life is too short to worry about the millions of a-holes out there. We’re not going to cure them.
Take away from your analogy…
– Last Updated: Aug-07-08 2:54 PM EST –
... for me is just that you feel comfortable and confident on the road.
That in itself sort of blows the analogy, as it's pretty clear that's not the situation in the original post. Situation was clearly exceeding their comfort and control limits (I'm more interested in the on-water vs. ramp stuff).
Jerks, whether on road or water, may get you upset (it's optional you know) - but do you let your emotional state control your safety? I doubt it, but if you were less at ease or less capable/experienced as a driver don't you think that would increase you odds of having problems?
Courtesy is important, but also really a secondary concern the way I look at these things. It's largely out of my control as it requires everyone participate in agreeable ways to all. Some won't (and not always intentionally), so I prefer to keep safety in my own hands as much as possible.
Wantonly reckless behavior is rare. We've all seen examples, but most accidents are between generally courteous folks who zigged when they should have zagged. A momentary lapse of attention (often letting emotional state get the best of them), or a misstep. The sort of things that can happen to anyone - but also things that happen a lot more when comfort and skill levels are lower and people are getting overwhelmed by events around them.
Pointing fingers, placing blame, justifying the right to be there, getting consensus on how rude or irresponsible "others" are, and all the other BS people love to engage in to feel better doesn't change a damn thing. Working on becoming more capable and less impacted by these things does.
In a nut shell: In these stories, both parties are almost always acting a bit irresponsibly. One side by being a bit careless/reckless/discourteous - the other by not having developed the tools to easily deal with the situations they're likely to encounter (which with wakes and such is usually what makes it into an issue in the first place).
One more time . . .
Some people continue to be so invested in impugning us on a number of levels over the incident I reported. Maybe this will convey the point. Put yourself in our shoes. You are sitting in your kayak, in the water, forward of the launch ramp, against the dock (on your right), INSIDE THE LAUNCH BAY, ready to paddle out. Your wife, in front and tandem to you, is also ready, having just attached her spray skirt. To your left is a rather large power boat, also ready to get underway. There is a clearance of approximately four feet between the power boat and the kayaks. You look over to the power boat and pause, offering them the courtesy of allowing them to depart first. Your own experience and training in motorized craft is that you DEPART THE ENCLOSED LAUNCH BAY (enclosed by ramp at rear, dock on either side)at minimum throttle until thoroughly clearing the docks and other boats, leaving no wake.
Suddenly, in the launch bay, the departing craft revs up to full throttle and hurls itself out of the launch bay. In less than a second the wake completely washes over your wife, completely engulfing her, and slamming her up against the dock. One of the young men in the power boat, sitting at the aft end, calls out sarcastically, “Sorry!” as they fly away into the distance.
Only an idiot would blame us for what just happened. Only a complete ass would fill in the missing details in a way that deliberately attempts to find fault in the victims in such an incident.
The second incident, minor compared to the first, that occurred upon our returning to take out, was complicated by her remaining fear resulting from the first incident. Having operated a great many vehicles in my life, from boats, to cars , to airplanes, to jet helicopters in combat situations, I have learned that no extreme amount of skill and experience - in anybody - makes them immune to panic under the right combination of circumstances. To argue otherwise, is incredibly naive.
Any of you who consider yourselves a “kayak god” (to quote one of the other posters)would have been just as engulfed and disappeared under that wave, just as completely as my wife was. We were still docked for Chrissakes!!! They had nearly collided with our boats when they came down the ramp un-powered. What would go through your mind, under the extreme circumstances of their departure? Would you think your perfect battle roll would save you from a 12" prop? As you were being slammed up against an oyster-encrusted dock, would your enviable paddling skills allow you to see through the onslaught of white water to know the prop was not about to slice your arm off? I was amazed to see my wife still upright after that wall of water, and for days I read the judgments of assholes (some, certainly not everybody) who have the nerve to impugn her paddling skills!!? Her biggest problem is underestimating the modest level of skills she has developed.
You weren’t there, so stop showing your ignorance by filling in the lines with your projections of what you think was our failures or our lack of responsibility!
I see no connection between the first incident and my (or her) level of paddling experience, and anybody who continues to make this connection at this point in the discussion is a bigger asshole than the person operating the power boat!
The second incident precipitated her panic, based on what had happened as she was about to leave the dock. I think it would be wise not to rush to judgment merely on the suppositions that can be imagined between the lines of my accounts. The way the world works, he who is so quick to judge others of us as unskilled, stupid, inconsiderate or irresponsible on the water may find himself in dire straits where no amount of skills will save him, nor will the weightiest brass balls for ballast allow him the presence of mind to remain upright.
well said…
As a once power boater turned into a very long time paddler, I was dismayed at the responce to your OP. I was raised in an area where folks get in motored craft at a young age. We were taught that the rule was when approaching a lesser powered boat, always power down for safety’s sake. Boat launch areas were a sacred no wake zone. It was part of our beings by the time we reached adulthood. Boaters who did otherwise were considered ignorant and one seldom saw that happen. I’ve been surprised at some of the responces here.
About that launch bay
Is it bordered by a dock or similar that you could learn to launch from the other side of? Granted it might take some practice to get used to entering or exiting the boat from some height, but it is doable if you take the time to practice.
I grow concerned when I hear that both you two and a powerboat were inside the launch bay at the same time. That’s something that I would avoid at all costs. I understand that the other folks might have decided to launch with you and your wife still getting ready to go out, and if that happened it’s on them, but on the flip side a couple of kayakers can usually get out of the way pretty quickly.
You probably should paddle out from the launch bay to pull on your skirts, and gloves if you hold off on that until the skirt is on. The worst that’ll happen is you get a bit of water in the cockpit, but staying dry is an oxymoron in a kayak anyway. And if there is a dock alongside you could completely eliminate the problem by learning to get in from a tall dock.
Didn’t you know…
– Last Updated: Aug-08-08 1:30 PM EST –
all paddlers were born with a bomb proof roll, their nose high in the air and a GP stuck up their bum.
A no wake zone, is a no wake zone. Last summer, at the very same dock I mentioned in my previous post, in other words, right in front of the river patrol office, a lady was standing on the dock. It a split second a power boater gunned the throttle, went right up on the dock, and landed right on top of her. There he was, just a teeter toddling on top of her body with his boat.
Point being, it's a PUBLIC boat launch. This whole idea that a paddler can't use one because their "air of snootiness" throughout the years at launches has driven the boating public to desperate bad behavior tactics is asinine. This is like saying that if I get hit by a drunk driver on the I-5, it's my fault because I was chose to go that way. Guarantee, if the river patrol or the CG would have been there, there would have been some poor boaters. Heavy fines accompany stupidity and rudeness. Make yourself usefull, do a ride along on the water some day.
I think you over-reacted
– Last Updated: Aug-14-08 10:54 AM EST –
The wake per se isn't my issue with being in the launch bay at the same time as a power boat - it's the utterly uncontrollable stuff that can happen like a boat slipping wrong off the trailer, or a commercial boat going along outside in the channel that throws up a huge wake. We've had exactly that happen with a barge at one of our launches - we weren't at all sure if the paddler who was still entering her boat was going to be all right. Luckily she was, but that wake trashed the floating dock. I doubt the story would have ended up happily if a power boat had been halfway off the trailer at the same time she was in there in her kevlar canoe.
Also, skirting up away from the launch and learning to enter/exit a boat from awkward spots like higher docks is normal practice for many with whom I paddle. It's not elitist, it's just a good way to handle some of the problems you run into paddling.
I'm not sure who you are yelling at here, but it shouldn't be anything I said. Besides - one more and we hit 100.
No
it’s meant for the collective, not you personally. Specifically, the ones I’m glad are not in the SAR business.
Word NM