Safety Advice -- Canoes on the Coast

Hi all,

My 14 year old daughter is scheduled to do a canoe trip along the Maine Coast next week. I’m concerned about her safety and would love the opinion of those who know.
The water is 45 degrees and the kids are not provided with wetsuits or drysuits, but if send her I’d rent her a drysuit.

The company running the trip says the canoes are almost impossible to capsize. I’m just not convinced they are right about this. The canoes are made of wood, weigh 200 pounds. There will be six kids and a guide in each canoe. They’re going to be paddling from island to island around Deer Isle Maine, in semi-sheltered water, but they can definitely get bad weather and large waves. You can see a picture and read more about the trip here They don’t have float bags, pumps or anything else.

I understand a lot depends on the skill of the guides and knowing the weather, but does anyone know just how hard these types of canoes are to capsize?. Are they as stable as the company claims?

Thanks,
Sam

Your link did not come thru in your post. The canoes I know from my youth - we used to call them war canoes at camp, Heavy as all hell and decidedly harder to capsize than my lightweight solo. But… I spend time each summer in the next bay west of there and may have a bit more respect for the vagaries of the weather this time of year than I am sure these organizers have. This is an area where a lot of people unfamiliar with sea conditions can go and stay out of trouble if they are smart. But that is usually later in the year, when the water is at least in the mid fifties.

Is this a trip they do year after year? Or is it a new outfitter? If you could get the link up, it would be easier to tell.

Here’s the link http://www.kroka.org/programs/prog_listing_ocean.php

They have been doing it a few times a year for at least ten years and haven’t capsized yet. Of course, that doesn’t mean it’s safe. They may just be lucky. There seems to be almost no other companies doing this type of trip off the coast, especially this time of year, so it’s pretty much just taking the company’s word for it. Given they’ve been running it so long, it’s not like they’re going to even consider it might not be such a good idea. That’s why I’m hoping for someone outside the company to speak about the canoes stability on these type of waters. thanks

I’d like to know more about the company… Yes larger canoes are more stable and are a favorite of camps. But the phrase"impossible to capsize" sends up red flags.
They can capsize or eject paddlers… For that reason the camp I mostly work with always has a safety skiff out when those canoes are out with lots of kids. And the canoes carry about ten people…They are 36 feet long
They ought to be provided with at least wetsuits. I can understand why perhaps not drysuits as kids are an assortment of sizes.

Before kayaking was on the Maine coast , Boston AMC Whitewater was instrumental in canoe instruction on the Gulf of Maine. But safety was taught first and respect for the water
In this case I am not sure that is there. Not enough information.

I kayak fairly regularly in this area… In June the fog is notorious. The weather has been so bad lately and the wind up so that even I who live 40 minutes from the Maine Coast has not gone out on the ocean.

They absolutely need flotation if the canoes are not wood. They of course need bilge pumps… To rescue a canoe that heavy filled with water would kill the rescuers.

Canoes of that size have been used on Lake Superior but those that run the tours will tell you that capsizes do happen… The consequences are mitigated by proper planning and the use and wearing of emergency communication devices and appropriate clothing for each participant. Here is an example of a voyageur canoe trip series on Lake Superior , Note boat size’https://www.naturallysuperior.com/lake-superior-voyageur-canoe-brigades/

Thank you @kayamedic They are wooden canoes. Would the need for bilge pumps still apply? I’m pretty sure they don’t have bilge pumps. I’m not even sure what they are.

As for the company, they’ve been around for a while, and have a good safety record. There are no registered guides on the trip because apparently if classified as a youth camp, the leaders only need a trip leader permit. The guides are trained as first responders.

I have no doubt the company believes these canoes are safe, I’m just not sure they’re right about it and have enough expertise to really know. Capsizing or swamping in 45 degree water seems extremely treacherous. If my daughter goes, I’m renting her a drysuit, but the leaders won’t be wearing wetsuits or drysuits and for everyone else a wetsuit is optional.

@SC said:
I have no doubt the company believes these canoes are safe, I’m just not sure they’re right about it and have enough expertise to really know. Capsizing or swamping in 45 degree water seems extremely treacherous. If my daughter goes, I’m renting her a drysuit, but the leaders won’t be wearing wetsuits or drysuits and for everyone else a wetsuit is optional.

There are lots of things we do that are “safe” every day. Drive cars, walk down stairs, fly in aircraft, etc, etc. Clearly with all the things I just mentioned, accidents DO happen. That’s why there are seat belts and airbags, handrails and landings, and … um… ok, well if you’re in a jetliner and something goes wrong you’re on your own. :wink:

I think you have the right idea being concerned for her safety and taking some proactive steps. However, there’s the “group mentality” factor to consider as well here. Depending on how mature and headstrong your daughter is she may or may not actually wear the suit. The chances are even lower if it ends up being warm (air) and sunny. How does this affect the social interactions that she’ll have on the trip if she’s the only one in a drysuit and the organizers/guides/leaders aren’t advocating the need for such attire?

If she’s the type that may take the chance to fit in rather than play it safe, you may have some luck looking at this web site with her and watching a few of the videos there:

http://www.coldwaterbootcamp.com/pages/home.html

Here’s a short preview:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1xohI3B4Uc

I took a look at their page and that was reassuring. They are using Grand Laker canoes… Square stern and quite a bit wider than the what we think of as normal canoe. Those canoes were designed for rough water.
Seems like the goal is to be in “harmony with nature” and learn by watching. That would make me feel better but you are the parent. I see distances per day are modest… I am guessing ( guessing is the word) that the first island destination is Russ and the second Hell’s Half Acre.

Now bad things can happen between Hells Half Acre and the mainland( we outran a storm in that passage) but if you ask them what their SOL plan is that might reassure you. If the schedule is flexible and has wait times the trip is quite doable in a canoe. The Grand Laker is more like an outboard motorboat. Its designed to have a motor if you want. Will that be an option?

Bilge pumps would only help empty a canoe of water. Another approach is to respect harsh weather. I am sure there are six or seven Clorox bottles on board.
Trip leaders are fine. These canoes are fine. There is one down the road from me on sale and I have to keep my husband from calling the number. We’d like a skiff to do the same sort of MITA touring on the islands and that shape canoe would be ideal.( with a motor)

It does surprise me that wood canvas canoes are in use on salt water. Corrosion can be an issue with the brass tacks but the canoe wont fall apart in the middle of the crossing.

Wetsuit definitely. And raingear… This Awful April and Miserable May won’t let up.

I looked at the site. I was looking for descriptions of the guides for this particular trip and must be having a dumb moment. I really can’t find anyone with strong on-water training listed in their year round NH staff. But maybe they hire local guides for these Maine coast trips?

As to the area to paddle, if you know to wait out the weather you can make your way around that stretch fine. But that can be a couple of days of waiting this time of year. So they spend more time communing in one place, seems OK.

But that is darned cold water. If it were someone I was responsible for, I would be a lot happier if they were at least in wetsuits. It is the norm for many places that rent along the coast of Maine to have wetsuits around for their customers, even in warmer weather.

I might be worth asking them what they would do if there was a capsize. It may be that they have a plan but are trying to err on the side of being overly reassuring to parents.

Problem with drysuit if she wears the right amount of clothing under the suit for water temp she might be way to hot if the air temp is warm. Iam a kayaker and I just roll when warm. But being in a large canoe iam not sure she could cool her self off enough. She starts dumping water on her she will get others seated by wet not wearing drysuits which wont go over well. Maybe a farmer john style wetsuit might work better as she could leave it zipped open to stay cool but if something happens she could then zip it up. No wear as good as a drysuit but she might actually wear the westuit.

@dc9mm The trip is next week, high temps during the day mid fifties to low sixties. Rain and cloud for some of it. A drysuit would be a perfect idea for comfort in those temps and actually more comfortable than neoprene. If the group support is solid, she can take the risk of going a layer lighter under the drysuit than she would if she was going to be doing wet work in a kayak.

I’d like to see hot weather. Stonington tops out in low sixties and with the water temp 45 the temp of the air on top of the water is more low 50’s, Part of the allure of kayaking in the summer months is that when we have an 85 degree heat wave we can go on the ocean and enjoy those same 50 degree air temps. We’ve been known to grab fleece when we had a real hot day some years ago… think it was 90 and took a boat ride out on the ocean.

We still have snow in the forecast in the Maine mountains. The rest of you have nice flowers. Our trees are not out yet.

Schools are allowed to have Trip Leaders rather than Registered Maine Guides. They have to have wilderness first aid training and lifeguard certification. http://www.kroka.org/about/safety.shtml

In this day and age I applaud a school that does encourage wilderness exploration. There are fewer and fewer of these each year.

From my experience in paddling out of Stonington. The temp you are going to feel will be somewhere between the water temp and the air temp. You never know how the weather is going to be there, last time I was there I was fogged in for 4 days. If I was going there I would be wearing my dry suit.

@shiraz627 said:
From my experience in paddling out of Stonington. The temp you are going to feel will be somewhere between the water temp and the air temp. You never know how the weather is going to be there, last time I was there I was fogged in for 4 days. If I was going there I would be wearing my dry suit.

Which are the same… the forecast is barely improving…But people in Grand Laker Canoes never wear drysuits! This isn’t kayaking.And if you have been in one of those canoes you know its more of a motorboat than a canoe. We do MITA patrols in motorboats of the same size and no one is wearing a drysuit. Paddle jacket and rain pants, of course.

Even splashed 45-degree water will feel very cold.

If it were me, I would wear at least a shorty 2mm wetsuit (short sleeves and legs), with a splash jacket kept handy. That way, the torso will be kept warmer if a good dousing from a wave hits the body. She can layer a jacket or long pants over that, since wetsuits fit snugly.

@kayamedic

"And if you have been in one of those canoes you know its more of a motorboat than a canoe. "

I’m not sure that’s accurate. I don’t know the difference, but I was told these are voyageur canoes and here’s a photo of kids in one. Doesn’t look like a motorboat to me and certainly doesn’t really look like something that can handle rough seas

A Voyageur Canoe has two pointy ends and is either 25 or 36 feet long
Grand Lakers are most familiar to those living in Maine… They are often used on big rough lakes… Like Grand Lake! If you aren’t from Maine its understandable that you aren’t familiar with them

The Voyageur canoes of the larger size regularly were used on the Great Lakes in the fur trade days… And sometimes even now for large group canoe trips.
Here is an article on the Grand Lakers along with pix
http://www.themaineoutdoorsman.com/2012/03/venerable-grand-lake-canoe.html

Cool read

Looking back at the itinerary… “meeting your Kroka teachers in Freeport ME” it seems ( surmising… maybe not putting the dots together accurately) that at least some of the staff is from the LLBean Paddesport school. They are all Maine Guides. The reason I say that is that they have a big paddling center and staff in Freeport. And I never have heard of Kroka in Freeport. They are in Marlowe NH. It may well be a cooperative effort.

@SC said:
@kayamedic

"And if you have been in one of those canoes you know its more of a motorboat than a canoe. "

I’m not sure that’s accurate. I don’t know the difference, but I was told these are voyageur canoes and here’s a photo of kids in one. Doesn’t look like a motorboat to me and certainly doesn’t really look like something that can handle rough seas

Well, what’s meant by “more of a motorboat than a canoe” is that it’s much bigger than a typical canoe and it has lots of freeboard. Before the days when it became normal for the average motorboat owner to put a year’s worth or more of his income into the purchase of a comparatively gigantic motorboat, typical “motorboats” were no bigger than the canoe in that picture. There’s no particular need for the paddlers to do anything special to help with stability in a boat of that size. I’m not suggesting such a boat is safe in all types of weather or that nothing can possibly go wrong, or even that this particular trip is as safe as it should be (only because I have no way of knowing that), but I’d bet the risk of a capsize is far less than I perceive you to be assuming.

I think Dad is worried about his kids. That’s what Dads do. Especially if it is an environment and a way of travel that is new to them.