sea sponsons

It is indeed a misnomer
but it’s more industry jargon that has become sacred.

Yes, I saw your pictures

– Last Updated: Feb-29-04 7:26 PM EST –

Very nice boat. Sometimes, it is not very easy to find an used ski that fits well.

I asked Bruce for a used Carbon Mako, but he said that was going to be very difficult to find one that fits me, so I have to go for a new one.

Regards,
Iceman

No free lunch
There are many reasons you are not getting lots of positive responses on this issue. It is certainly not because the experienced folks don’t know what they’re talking about.



Few people use them (which should tell you something right off)- and most of those who do use them for very specific things (to create a stable platform to fish - or inflated after a capsize as a recovery aide instead of a paddle float) - not for general stability underway (training wheels). Even those who use them and love them (?) probably don’t want to give you the wrong idea by supporting general sponson use.



They are not “a way to get the best of both worlds” as you think. If you paddle with them inflated you will lose speed and handling. In that case you’re better off with a slower more stable boat. If only using them to stop and snack or whatever - they are still extra gear in the way the rest of the time. You could more easily rig a paddle float outrigger when stopped. How often do you need to eat anyway? I’m betting you’ll tire or have to take a bathroom break faster than you’ll need to eat. I used to always bring snacks. Now I only do if going over 15 miles - and rarely eat them as 15 miles just doesn’t take that long anymore. Photos? If you have to rig sponsons to take them you’ll only get sunsets as you’ll have burned up all the daylight!



Once you get a faster boat - you’ll be more interested in paddling for it’s own sake - and not so much as a means to other things. Either that or you’ll got back to wide SOTs (nothing wrong with that).

skills, gear and elitism
Kwikle,

I never said “sponsons instead of skills”. Did you even read my posts or are you just reacting rabidly to the term “sponsons”?



It used to be rudders which would enfuriate some elitist kayakers. Some still haven’t accepted their occaisional usefulness. Some of these are the same people who disparage Sit-On-tops as beach toys or tupperware. Don’t let elitism get in the way of sharing your knowledge on those kayaking skills you DO know a lot about. Lighten up and be more open minded. This is all in persuit of fun. Try new things if they might fit into your paddling goals.



I take safety and skills seriously and who says gear can’t be a positive addition to skills? Everything you take onto the water INCLUDING YOUR KAYAK is gear!



And by the way, americans are correct…they CAN buy safety. You too have bought safety unless you are paddling a bone and skin boat with no compass, PFD, cell phone, radio or paddle float.



Greyak,

If I get sponsons, I would not paddle with them inflated. Would kinda defeat the reason for a long narrow boat wouldn’t it? They would be used for specific purposes, as you suggested. So I take it, as long as they are used for specific purposes like photography, you would give them your blessing?

Probably because

– Last Updated: Feb-29-04 8:47 PM EST –

with comparable paddlers, they'll almost run with surfskis, which generally outrun other kayaks fairly handily.

(And BTW, I'd suggest a Scupper before an OC-1 for someone that wants stability. OC-1s tend to have narrow beams (down into the 14-16" range) and fairly high seats. They're not as tippy as a ski, but you don't have to work at it very hard to huli one.)

Jim,
I don’t need them. Pure and simple. I’ve been blown out of the boat once – just recently by a crashing wave in surf. Me and boat got separated. Sponsoons wouldn’t have done a thing to help me. I hadn’t had to swim in almost three years since developing a roll. If I were to wet exit, I would go to a reentry and roll. Period. Not being macho. Just stating what is the reality and plan for me. And, if I didn’t have a roll, as I did not early on, I didn’t go out into the ocean when there were any chance of significant conditions. That was exercising my judgement based on an appraisal of my skills.



Feel free to buy sponsoons. I was just responding to your post about folks not using sponsoons as something related to machismo. For many, I think not. I should have avoided responding to your speculation, which I think is based more on a lack of experience.



sing

Jim, what these people are gently trying
to tell you is that you might need to rethink what you want sponsons for. Whether they’ve spent time messing around with sponsons or not, they have some experience with what does and doesn’t work in sloppy water. Sponsons may have a place, but what I see people saying is that you’re threatening to put too much reliance on the sponsons to allow you to do things you wouldn’t otherwise do at your current skill level. FWIW, I read your post the same way. When you ask for advice, it’s generally best not too get too defensive when people give it to you (and yes, I’ve made the same mistake myself).

Jargon…

– Last Updated: Feb-29-04 8:57 PM EST –

okay... I don't know what folks want to call it. But some boats clearly have the quality of being able to stay more vertical in pitched seas than other boats. These boats are easier to edge/lean, scull, roll and balance brace. This same boat feels tippy and scary to someone who doesn't know how to scull and roll, even though such a boat is quite responsive in rough conditions.

Maybe LeeG's term should be used instead of initial and secondary stability. :) Whatever, there are of varying degree of this "quality."

sing

Keep Paddling…
someday you’ll be accused of being “elitist…” :wink: Things have a way of coming full circle with enough time.



sing

ok
You are probably right, sing.

Dlongbord, I have re-thought my reasons for considering the sponsons thanks to the replies.

True dat!
I think I’m often put on the snobby list here, and considered opinionated, but as it related to paddling consider:



I have a Big plastic SOT, A composite SINK, and am crazy enough to try a surf ski.



I have boats with skeg, rudder, and nothing. Some bought new, some used.



I use Greenland, Euro and wing paddles.



If you see me chime on on any of the long running “debates” like SOT vs. SINK,

Skeg vs. Rudder, or anything to do with safety please keep in mind I have no set affiliations or adgendas. I will argue multiple sides of these so called issues.



My limited experience is in warm waters and I tend to stay out of camping and cold weather gear threads. I also don’t paddle canoes - so only rarely comment on those threads either.



So what does all that have to do with anything? Most people chiming in on this sponson thread have a LOT more experience and better sense of perspective than I. Do what you want Jim, but listen to them. Think about why they would even bother to comment…

Nope

– Last Updated: Feb-29-04 11:14 PM EST –

Anything strapped on a perfectly good kayak is too much. I see no place on my kayak where they would not be in the way.

If it's photography and you're really into - down here - stick to your wide SOT! Q700's are for people who PADDLE! *L*

Give it a little time and you be able to take pictures just fine in up to moderate chop. Just don't expect to for a while, and not at all offshore or around a lot of boat wakes until you learn to roll. Then you can take underwater shots too!

I'd recommed the waterproof disposables or something with a dive housing - even for surface shots only. Salt water and electronics don't mix.

Quite honestly,…
I don’t care for the paddle float rescue when rough waters are the scenario. I’ve used different kinds of floats and have yet to have a reliable re-entry. Additionally, very few kayaks are rigged for paddle float rescues. Forget the bungies on rough water. You’ll find yourself shagging a paddle next. Not good during a rescue. Proper deck rigging for paddle float rescues generally requires owner modifications.



Achieve a re-entry and roll. Get it down to where you are calm during the procedure so you can evaluate when to come up and how to stay up. After all, rough waters took you down didn’t they? They’re probably still there!



Sponsons may have a valid purpose on long big water expeditions where they are stored in a boat and used to stabilise a boat for transporting an immobile paddler.



My biggest beef with them is the perception of safety. If used by a skilled paddler as an aid during emergencies then no worries. If, however, they are used because someone doesn’t have a roll, re-entry/roll, bracing/sculling skills, then they are certainly a detriment and will result in failure.



I spent four hours today towing a couple of idiots in a drift boat. They dumped it, lost their oars, and were not dressed for immersion. Air temps were 23-28F, river is still filled with ice, and the winds were hitting 15-20 mph (measured). They felt their seat pad float aids were all they needed. They felt no need to practice rescue skills even though they were fishing in the middle of a Wyoming snowstorm on a damned ice choked river.



People like this, and those unskilled paddlers who use sponsons, are a threat to their own lives and to mine.



I enjoyed towing these guys in to the G&F office which happens to sit aside the river. A quick cell call got me an officer and the gentlemen were ticketed for a variety of violations.



Learn your skills and then determine the efficacy of sponsons for your particular needs. Only a skilled paddler can make such a determination.



Regards and pleasant waters to you.



-Holmes

ego, macho self reliance,etc.
buy them, use them, you have found no good reasons not to.

thanks
Thank you all for the time and advice on this subject. I really did not expect it to be such a “hot button.”



I don’t think I will get the sponsons. Mostly because I can’t see myself drilling holes in a perfectly good kayak. I considered them mainly as a tool for re-entry but since I haven’t even attempted one yet, I do not know just how much I may or may not need additional tools.



Regards the photography, I suspect you are all correct. I will probably be too involved with paddling a long, sleek kayak to care about photos.



But before I leave this thread:

sponsons may be extraneous gear, but I have also seen SINK padddlers who consider spray skirts and PFD’s as “too much to bother with”. I never go out on my SOT without wearing my PFD and I am pretty sure I won’t go out without wearing my PFD and a spray skirt in my Q700 either. Maybe some of you cowboys do that once in a while because you feel your “skills” warrant it,

but I respect the sea more than I will ever respect any skills I may develop. I believe in gear!

We all believe in gear
and we all buy safety. It is a shame that some (like this “Tim” person) have made a hot button on some of us that gets pressed too easily but I am a firm believer in having as much fun as possible out there.

The native Greenlanders, Inuit, earopeans didn’t have paddle floats. They didn’t have pfd’s. They didn’t have compasses. They MAY however have used bladders made of animal stomachs or other internal organs for floatation. They DID learn to understand lines of longitude from the sun’s arc for rough positioning… They WOULD have jumped at the chance for any of todays technology. For a sea crossing, inflatable sponsons may be the thing to have. But none of us do that in these small craft. It’s a shame that we embrace some good ideas but shun others because of a certain mind-set that we get afflicted with. We carry dinghy’s on our cruisers for voyages but we are afraid it will look silly to have deflated bladders strapped to the sides of our boats?. We wear PFD’s. We sing the praises of paddle floats. If a few of us embrace an inflatable sponson idea then fantastic! If you buy them and love them great! If you buy them and find them to be a nuisance then great too! You got out there, you had fun, you learned something. What the rest of us need to do is support your freedom to embrace your own methods. You asked for feedback from those with experience with sponsons and got a lot of drumming instead. That happens here far too much. Sorry, I too have no experience with them so I cannot give you any advice one way or another. I do however hope that they come with manual inflation tubes/valves in case the CO2 cartridges fail.

Have fun!

The “drumming” Wasn’t Intended…

– Last Updated: Mar-01-04 8:18 AM EST –

Jim asked for feedback on Sponsoons but noticed that there is a paucity of response on that. Why? The experienced paddlers don't seem to believe in sponsoons. Why? The answer is probably because the experienced paddlers know that a self-recovery from capsize with a roll takes less than several seconds, no matter the conditions. Self rescue with reentry and roll takes about 10-15 seconds, excluding the pumping. In rough water conditions, it could take longer because a paddle float has to be used to stablize the boat. Fastest is a foam float. Longer with an inflatable paddle float. I don't even use a paddle float anymore. I found that my Greenland paddle in itself has sufficient bouyancy as an outrigger.

If I were to do a major crossing that involves a night or more, I would definitely add sponsoons as a useful tool. But I won't kid myself or anyone else... I have no intention of going out on an extended expedition. I do predominantly day paddles. I enjoy going out in "textured" water within what I judge to be in my ability. I have judged that the "safety" offered by a sponsoon is not sufficient for me to include it on my required equipment list.

sing

Great points!

Jim,
VSG sent you here knowing what was going to happen.



Regards,

Iceman

cowboys
part of the “hot button” aspect could be from arguing with people with more experience then characterizing them as macho or cowboys . You really aren’t likely to find instructors using dominant macho posturing as a teaching tool which is something the sponson guy characterizes instructors having in spades and you have done to a small degree for those who’s opinions you’ve solicited.

A favorite rescue story was in Sea Kayaker magazine from 8 or so years ago. A fellow went out paddling for a day in cold storm conditions, solo. He capsized 1/4mile from shore, broke his paddle during self-rescue (paddlefloat self-rescue is limited), I don’t recall if a spare paddle was in the picture but essentially he was relying on an inflatable pillow to get him back in his boat and alive. He was rescued by a boat and was seen throughout his thrashing by a few people on shore. So his device was a contributing factor as life saver as would sponsons. What I found strange about his analysis of the event was the significance he placed on the loss of his $50 goretex rain hat as a contributing factor in his debilitated condition from multiple immersions and onset of hypothermia.

Imagine if no one was watching him, he would have a floating kayak and aid,and he’d be dead from hypothermia/drowning.

Equipment, especially safety equipment, is tertiary to judgement/skills and environmental conditions as factors for being safe. So what you may perceive as unwarranted dismissal of a good argument for their use is partially a reaction to your focus on the device and not more important factors in being safe.

These cowboys and middle aged macho posturing instructors trying to kill their clients for the big bucks and movie contracts actually started with less knowledge than you have now.

I find having a sponge on a tether is a good thing.