I’m hoping for some guidance on finding a folding canoe. We’re looking for a small, reasonably light-weight, 2- person canoe that won’t break the bank. Primary use is for day trips in protected marshes and swamps, so maneuverability is important, but would need to be able to handle moderately windy conditions (up to 15 kt. or so) and mild chop (less than a foot) at least for brief crossings. Hopefully can be constructed in 1/2 hour or less. Does not need to carry much load.
I looked at the MyCanoe “Recreational Plus” and like the sound of it, but I’m put off by the fact that the seats are only a couple inches above the hull, so you can’t kneel comfortably.
For what you would pay for that flimsy Mycanoe (which I doubt you could kneel in without deforming the hull anyway) you could find a used Pakboat Pakcanoe 150T, which would be far more comfortable, durable and competent in the coditions you describe.
These have proven themselves for decades in use by hunting and fishing guides to use for remote fly-in locations and are even suitable for moderate whitewater. Within the past year I have seen at least 3 of them turn up in good shape on the used market for under $1300 (half the new price). A quick search found this one for $1100 in the metro NYC area.
And this newer one for $1,800 in SC. I noticed this one is cross-listed on Ebay and they state there that they are willing to take offers.
And like any folder, they can be boxed up and shipped so you can source one from any location.
I’ve owned several Pakboats (kayaks, but the materials and quality are the same) and they are solid and seaworthy craft, also among the lightest of any of the folding boat lines.
Thank you both! I am going to look into these postings on CraigsList and keep my ear to the ground for other PakCanoe sales!
They sound like they would fit the bill, just wondering how long they take to construct, if anyone knows? I did an expedition trip into arctic Alaska about 20-25 years ago where we took folding canoes loaded onto a sea plane – highly reliable craft obviously a necessity for such a remote location. It took the group a good hour to get all the canoes constructed, but that was with 6 or 8 people working on multiple boats and 2 guides showing everyone what to do. Unfortunately I don’t remember what kind of boats they were.
They might have been Ally folding canoes, which have been around longer than Pakboats — in fact Pakboat’s founder worked for them before starting his own company (probably because Ally never updated their designs and he wanted to improve on them.) . Those Allys are kind of a pain to assemble. — I helped someone sell an older 18’ Ally a few years ago and recall it being a bear to assemble so we could take photos of it for an ad. Required a lot of fiddling and patience.
I have not owned a Pakcanoe but I did have a Pakboat XT 15 kayak (now discontinued) for a few years which used a similar frame design to the canoes. Like all the Pakboats I have owned it took about 45 minutes to set up the first tiime but I got it down to under 30 with familiarity with each step and regular practice. With the kayaks, installing the deck and inflating the flotation bags adds 10 to 20 minutes so a canoe (which has neither) is simpler and faster. I suspect 2 people who have some experience setting up a Pakcanoe could do it easily in 20 to 30 minutes.
As I often argue in defense of folders, it takes me 10 to 15 minutes to load and fasten down a hard shell kayak on my car roof rack and then about that much time again to unfasten and unload it and stash all the straps and tie downs at the launch site. So assembling a “bag boat” does not really add that much extra time to your paddling outings since you don’t have to rack it.
I have a MyCanoe. It paddles and rows nicely, if you want to kneel, not sit, just move where you put the seats and kneel in front. It takes a little practice to put together, until you are used to it. I got it to see if my 90 year old father could get into it easier than the kayak. Unfortunately he could not sit in it without a back support, hence, I have’s used it much. It paddles nicely and seems stable.
All useful comments, thank you. @Willowleaf, I like your thinking about time for construction vs. car topping.
I have continued to research and leaning towards a PakCanoe, or maybe Ally if I can find one, but the more I look the more questions. If anyone can help:
I definitely like to kneel, for comfort, and stability when needed. @tagosse mentions kneeling in front of the seat, which is a given; but does this mean you’re kneeling directly on the skin, in between the ribs? That seems more reasonable for an origami style like MyCanoe, vs. skin on frame. Or are there accessories to create a kneeling platform on top of the ribs?
I saw a review of Ally that they don’t use marine grade aluminum, so the frame corrodes over time if used in salt water. Does PakBoat or MyCanoe us marine grade?
There is a beautiful hardwood swamp that I like to visit. Unlike our local marsh sanctuary though, I would think a hardwood swamp/stream would risk a puncture with a skin on frame. How resilient are they?
Lookiing at the Pakcanoe assembly video on the Pakboat website…
…it looks like the side bars that fasten to the ribs could be placed at any point along the frame bridging the rib verticals, including down at the bottom just above the angle where the rib bends under the hull. Doing that, you could pad the lowered seat with some kind of semi rigid closed cell foam for kneeling and your weight would be distributed safely onto the frame. The seat installation is about 80% of the way through the clip. I usually place an ensolite closed cell pad or one of those flexible rubbery kitchen floor mats on the floor of my folders to cushion my legs from resting directly on the frame so you could do the same where your feet would be resting in the kneeling position.
Pakboat has always been forthcoming in answering questions about using their boats – considering how many hunting and fishing guides used them in backcountry and even whitewater, I’m sure there are ways to set them up for kneeling – I have seen videos of people using them on some wildwater rivers, clearly kneeling.
On your second point, Pakboat uses anodized aluminum which is salt resistant. Even my 20 year old Pakboat Puffin, which is NON-anodized aluminum, has not shown signs of any corrosion, though I have not used it in salt water but I don’t know where it was used by the owners who had it for its first decade. I always “anoint the joints” in my folder frames with Boeshield anti-corrosion lubricant when I assemble them and know i will be leaving them set up for a while – also always flush them out thoroughly with fresh water after paddling in salt water. I did buy a used Feathercraft folder years ago that had two frame parts corroded together so it could not be broken down fully – the original buyer had used it for coastal paddling trips in Alaska and apparently left it set up without cleaning. I did get them replaced (Feathercraft was still in business then) but it reminded me to be diligent with my folders since then about tending to that.
It’s not as easy as people imagine to puncture a Pakboat skin, or that of any other higher end folder. For one thing, they flex so unless it is a very very sharp and thin point it is unlikely to push through. I’ve bounced my folders off exposed rebar ends on rusty docks and marinas – I often paddle on the big industrial rivers around Pittsburgh which are lined with abandoned steel mill infrastructure and abandoned bridge pilings and docks. The hulls are coated with a thick layer of rubbery material and you can even add a “sacrificial” wide rubberized tape over the keel line to further prevent scrapes.
My only punctures in 23 years of paddling folding boats were one from the INSIDE of the Pakboat XT15 I had for a while, when we set it up the second time and put in the seat incorrectly so a metal clip was facing the wrong way and poked a hole in the adjacent flotation sponson tube when my weight on the seat pushed it into it. When I realized the one side was losing air, we pulled out onto the shored, submerged the boat to find the air bubbles from the puncture, then used the patch kit that comes with the boat to cut and glue a patch over the 1/4" tear. When I sold the kayak 7 years later that patch still held. And I burst a seam on the sponsons of my first Feathercraft due to stupidly forgetting to release some air from the valves when I pulled out for a lunch stop on a hot day. Air expansion caused that but I was able to order a new sponson – then later discovered I could also patch the small seam split on the damaged one and mended and kept it as a spare.
The one drawback though, to swamp paddling (and this applied to sand and gravel bars too): a soft flexible boat will tend to drag and get hung up on those surfaces so you usually have to climb out and drag the boat past the obstacles. You can’t “bounce” it over a short underwater hang up spot like you can a hardshell boat.
Regarding kneeling – I think what you’re saying is that the seats could be lowered all the way to the hull and used as a rigid platform to kneel on. It’s hard to be sure from the video, but even if that’s true, they would be too far back to kneel on. Unless the seats can be attached further back onto different pairs of rib verticals. But I doubt that’s the case, since the verticals have to be at the correct distance apart to match the width of the seat. I agree I have also seen videos showing people kneeling, you just can’t see what they’re kneeling on. Sounds like a question for PakBoat.
Regarding marine grade aluminum: salt makes ALL the difference – it is incredibly corrosive. But nothing is salt proof, and diligence is critical for salt water paddling (I kayak mostly on saltwater and always do a thorough rinse afterwards). I wouldn’t consider non-anodized aluminum, but anodized is probably the best option.
Re punctures: It makes sense that flexing would be helpful. Broken branches can definitely leave sharp and thin points, but not very hard, and I’m not going to be ramming anything at top speed. If they can bounce off of rebar (interesting scenery you’re paddling in!), I think I’ll be ok.
Really good point about a flexy boat getting hung up on things–it’s helpful to know I should anticipate this. But it doesn’t concern me.
With MyCanoe, you can just not put in the seats and kneel comfortably. There is the MyCanoe exterior, and the outside carrying case becomes the floorboards - so you are on a double layer. On the water - you should have plenty of support, I personally would not kneel in it on the land, but they I wouldn’t in ANY boat. I don’t know that MyCanoe uses marine grade metal, but I know the metal is at least painted. They say OK in salt water - just rinse off afterwards. If you were on the West Coast, I would be glad to show it to you so you could see yourself.