Seeking experience with NEW SURFING WETSUITS

Paddlers' Place
#1

Question for sea kayakers and whitewater paddlers:

Is anyone paddling in cold weather (fall/spring and maybe even winter depending on where you live) with a modern wetsuit you bought in the last two years that was designed for surfing?

Here’s why I’m asking: I need either a wetsuit or drysuit for cold-weather sea kayaking. I’m well aware that most paddlers these days paddle in drysuits. And I’m well aware of the benefits of drysuits. I’m also aware that good ones are very expensive and I’m very poor right now, LOL.

Here’s what I also know:

  • Wetsuit design has come a long way in the past few decades.
  • Wetsuits designed for surfing (not paddling) are at the cutting edge of development, because surfing is where the market is.
  • Most paddlers’ experience with wetsuits is very dated—and involve thick, heavy Farmer John wetsuits from many years ago.
  • I’ve read that the latest surfing wetsuits are extremely advanced: they are now made with hyper-stretchy material, lined with microfleece, and some are even practically drysuits because they let almost no water pass inside the suit.
  • It is a myth that paddlers need more mobility than surfers. Just watch surfers arm-paddling out to the lineup, and watch them while surfing a wave, and you’ll see they are probably MORE mobile and active than paddlers.
  • I’ve read that wearing the latest generation of surfing wetsuits is like wearing spandex, except they’re warm in cold water.

So I’d really love to hear from anyone who owns a very NEW surfing wetsuit using these latest advances in design. I’m not interested in stories about when you used to wear a wetsuit years ago and hated it and then got a drysuit. Because that was an “old school wetsuit.” :slightly_smiling_face:

Again, I’m not anti-drysuit. I’m happy you’re happy in your drysuit! But I have yet to find a single paddler using a fully modern, cutting-edge surfing wetsuit and that’s who I want to find and hear from.

Wetsuits, on average, are far less expensive than drysuits (even the best ones)…and I keep hearing paddlers say “wetsuits are uncomfortable,” which directly contradicts the legions of surfers I see who are as happy as sea otters floating IN the water (not ON the water like paddlers) in their wetsuits.

THANKS!

#2

A demo model drysuit from a kayak specialty store (I know of one) would certainly help with the price point vs. a wetsuit. Nothing wrong with a wetsuit if you want to imitate an otter with the same soak level but you’re in a kayak so the exposure isn’t the same most times, unless your constantly in breaking surf and working the entire time.

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#3

so why aren’t you talking to the surfers that you might come in contact with? Don’t ya think they might have better advice than here…

#4

Thanks for the replies so far. I’m not talking with surfers because I want to know how the new surfing wetsuits work for paddling?

My theory (not proven of course) is that paddlers always buy drysuits for no other reason than…it’s what everyone else uses! And yes, they have other benefits too. My sense is that paddlers don’t even consider wetsuits because they don’t see any other paddlers using them…which is (I believe) because most paddlers haven’t tried one of the latest generation of surfing wetsuits. :+1:

And while paddlers wear drysuits, I know plenty who b*tch about them: they’re hard to get on and off, they get leaks, they feel like you’re wearing a crinkly plastic bag, they’re noisy, they can get clammy inside, etc. (Another drysuit nickname I’ve heard: “boil-in-a-bag!”)

It’s possible that the newest generation of surfing wetsuits are a heck of a lot more comfortable than drysuits…but I don’t know that for sure…

#5

So do you empty a warm bottle of water into it or do just pee in it?

#6

I’ve looked at a couple of sites that rated the best wetsuits for surfing 2025 and the only improvements I can find are increased flexibility and more comfortable seams.

A wetsuit gets its name for the fact that it is a close fitting, non-breathable, insulating layer. It may have an inner fabric that makes it easier to put on and off and be a bit more comfortable. It works by letting a small amount of water in that is quickly warmed by your body and the tight fit minimizes water flushing in and out. Surfers are in the water. Kayakers, barring a capsize, are not.

I started out with a wetsuit as I used to be a scuba diver. I quickly found out that a wetsuit, being non-breathable, if exerting yourself by kayaking you would quickly overheat. If you stopped or took a beach break, you would quickly become chilled unless wearing something like a windbreaker, possibly with thermal properties like a fleece liner. The newer wetsuits, being more flexible are probably more comfortable, but they have not changed how they work.

When oyster or salvage diving in the winter, the one thing you wanted to do, even if the water was in the 30s, was get in the water, because you were freezing in the boat, but fine in the water. I was pre-scuba drysuits.

With a quality dry suit you adjust the amount of thermal protection according to conditions and unless you are paddling very strenuously, a breathable fabric like Gore-tex helps keep you comfortable. A dry suit by itself has all of the insulating properties of a shower curtain.

I find a dry suit more comfortable than a wetsuit as it’s a looser fit and better at helping you to be comfortable temperature wise.

#7

Thanks @rstevens15 - you make some good points. A few possible counterpoints…

I quickly found out that a wetsuit, being non-breathable, if exerting yourself by kayaking you would quickly overheat.

I believe this…however, current wetsuits are made in a wide range of thicknesses, from 2-3mm up to 5-6mm…and many of them now are made with torso, arms, and legs all using different thicknesses.

If you stopped or took a beach break, you would quickly become chilled unless wearing something like a windbreaker, possibly with thermal properties like a fleece liner.

True, but with a wetsuit you can regulate your temperature to an extent by simply adding a paddling jacket (or windproof fleece) over your wetsuit while paddling. You can’t (easily) do that with a drysuit.

…a breathable fabric like Gore-tex helps keep you comfortable.

Gore-Tex and other breathable fabrics are somewhat overrated. They can only pass water vapor, not liquid water (sweat). People do sweat in drysuits, so your base layer often saturates quickly, and the suit interior becomes humid and clammy. Also, condensation forms inside the fabric when warm, moist air hits the cooler outer surface—so “breathable” doesn’t mean “dry.”

I’m not arguing against drysuits (I may end up getting one)…I’m just trying to take an unbiased look at both (surfing wetsuits made in 2024-2025 as well as drysuits) and compare the pros and cons.

Not everyone uses drysuits. I know an instructor in the San Francisco area who says they still teach classes using NRS 3mm farmer John wetsuits and paddle jackets with layers of merino wool and/or fleece underneath.

On dry suits, there is an upcoming PFAS ban (Goretex uses PFAS) in about half the US states that could have a big impact. Already impacting standard jackets and the like. Extreme use items, like dry suits, have exemption until 2027.

#8

I’m also interested in hearing what paddlers know about new wetsuit technologies. I bought 2 cheapo’s off amaz last year (two different thicknesses) and I got used to wearing them. They’re not as bad as people say, but I doubt they have any new tech.

#9

I have used a wetsuit for the last 25 years of paddling. If you search wetsuit you will find lots of posts from Sing (paddles cold water year round) or Myself. I only use them down to 40 F water temps. Below that I just don’t enjoy how cold my hands and head get when surfing. I mostly flat water paddle in winter for the last two years on an icy windy lake in Utah, so far so good. I’ve used wetsuits in cold water in places like Stewart Island in New Zealand, Northern UK, and Pacific Northwest. Yes surfers use wetsuits in Norway, Iceland and Antarctica. Outfitters in those places may prefer you use one of their dry suits.
You need to adjust how you approach changing your clothes and you can preheat the suit with hot water if you want (not all that helpful for me, Peeing not unknown to the surf community). I’m not aware of any changes in the last two years that are revolutionary. Modern suits are much warmer than terrible thick farmer johns most people who don’t use wetsuits post about. My suits ( three to five years old) are flexible and I stick with back zip suits since the modern tiny front zip suits are a pain to put on for old guys.

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#10

I tried a farmer John wetsuit and liked it OK but got a terrible rash from the glued seams I can’t wear them. It’s a dry suit for me. I really like it. Yes I have replaced gaskets and there was a learning curve to getting in and out but I find mine to be comfortable. The downside is cost but as you use it over time you will be glad to have bought it. It’s 13 years old and I will replace gaskets for a second time. It doesn’t leak unless I forget to zip the pee zipper! I did that only once.

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#11

Since you have a tight budget and have observed that cheaper new wetsuits are more cheesy than you prefer, why don’t you look for a used one? I’ve bought several in the past including an Xcel Icon 3/4 mm full length surfing suit which I have used for SCUBA and whitewater kayaking. Warm, good fitting (unlike many of the companies, Xcel uses realistic and reliable sizing in both their men’s and women’s suits), comfortable and great flexibility, even though it is “old school” neoprene. I worried that the back zipper would be uncomfortable sitting in a kayak but it never bothered me.

I just did an eBay search on “Xcel Icon wetsuit” and a bunch popped up, all between $40 and $100 in several sizes including men’s medium-long, large and an XL. New, these are around $350 – really a quality suit.

I know some people get squeamish about used wetsuits (“eeew, people pee in them!”) I just turn them inside out and soak them in a bucket with wet suit enzyme wash (more to remove potential slime cooties from water they may have been used in than any human effluent). Besides, as a former dive instructor of mine once observed “when you are in a lake, river or sea, you are essentially swimming in a fish’s toilet.”

I think that particularly if you are uncertain as to whether a wet suit will work for you, it is pragmatic to buy used. People often buy sports gear like this and only use it once or twice (even not at all) when the activity ends up not being what they expected. I’ve worked off and on in the outdoor sports biz and see this all the time.

Xcel still makes the icon so the ones being sold on eBay are probably a bit newer than mine, which I bought in 2010. By the way, it has held up beautifully and I last wore it 2 years ago. I always soak it in wetsuit wash after using and hang it until it is thoroughly dry, then hang it in a closet away from UV and direct heat.

#12

While I have heard of people wearing insulating layers under a dry suit it interferes with the way a wetsuit is suppose to work. If immersed it adds a lot of water under the wetsuit that your body has to heat up, probably increases water flow, and would add a lot of weight. It would keep you warmer as long as you did not go into the water, however. The only legitimate thing to wear under a wetsuit is something like a lycra suit or rashguard. These protect against skin irritation caused by poorly designed seams and make it easier to get a wetsuit off and on.

Putting on an insulating layer over a dry suit is no more difficult than putting one on over a wetsuit.

Some wetsuits now come in combinations of thickness, but the thicknesses you want are dictated by the water temperature and your physiology. I don’t know how much more flexible newer wetsuits are now, but I found with wetsuits of 5mm or more, they were tiring to paddle in over time.

#13

And just to add to what @rstevens15 mentioned above, wetsuits made today have dramatically improved linings. Now they’re much softer, less abrasive, far more stretchy, and promote faster drying.

Thanks for the great comments @willowleaf about Xcel Icon wetsuits! and I’m certain the wetsuits made today are far better (more comfortable) than ones made 10 years ago (even though, yes, their basic function hasn’t changed).

From what I’ve read, the best NEW wetsuits today are almost drysuits…because they fit so snugly (while being extremely flexible) and have such good neck/wrist/ankle seals and non-stitched seams that they admit only a tiny amount of water (while still being warm) and don’t flush. Zipperless wetsuits are even better, because zippers can often be a source of icy-water flushing.

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#14

I would not call the newer wetsuits “almost drysuits” because they are made of waterproof material, not the vapor porous Goretex and analog breathable fabrics that modern drysuits have been made out of for at least 4 decades.

So wetsuits trap body moisture, even if the gaskets are blocking or reducing ingress of water. Dry suits are not super comfortable and warm just because they keep cold water out – they are that way because they keep your skin dry from both external and internally generated moisture by allowing the latter to transpire through the fabric. There was a fad years ago for “sauna suits”, essentially elastic-opening sweatsuits made of waterproof plastic – the idea was that they would make you “lose more weight” when you wore them while exercising. In fact, they just caused you to sweat more and be unable to cool down , which meant you lost water in your body to dehydration. There is also no dry air gap between the garment and your skin with a super tight wetsuit – dead air is the main insulator in down jackets and sleeping bags, and even in the glass wool insulation in house walls. This is why wet suits for very cold water use are actually partially inflatable to function as dry suits. But those are for diving and underwater work, too bulky for paddling.

A good dry suit is a game changer – as comfortable as street clothes when you get a good fit and you literally don’t even notice you are immersed in water, even when it’s so cold you’d be gasping if you were not wearing the suit. And your skin doesn’t look like a raisin at the end of a long day on the water, the way it can with a wetsuit.

You don’t have to pay a fortune for a drysuit either. I’ve bought all 3 of mine gently used, 2 Kokatat top of the line Goretex ones that would have been over $1200 but each cost me about $400. First one lasted me 15 years before the zipper blew out (and it had too many patches to bother trying to salvage – didn’t owe me anything). Still have the second one plus an IR Aphrodite I picked up from a local rafting guide after she had only used it 3 times – that one was worth $1300 and she sold it to me for half that.

Maybe MojaveFlyer will weigh in with some wetsuit advice. She’s a diver (and underwater photographer) and I seem to recall her sharing some recommendations on the newer suit materials and brands to another forum poster a few years ago.

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#15

I agree with most of your post @willowleaf, but I’d disagree with the effectiveness of “waterproof breathable” membranes and fabrics. I’ve had a lot of experience with them outside of drysuits (I do a ton of XC skiing in winter and am an avid backpacker) and many I know agree: Gore-Tex is overrated. (For example, it’s almost worthless with footwear—if you wear your Gore-Tex hiking boots in pouring rain for a few hours, your feet WILL be soaked. There’s no stopping it. It just takes longer than non-Gore-Tex boots.)

It does help, some…but it doesn’t stop you from getting wet from condensation when your body heat touches the cold shell (in cold weather). IMO drysuits are more waterproof than “breathable.” I’ve also heard from kayakers that drysuits work best in the coldest weather…as it gets warmer, the “boil in a bag” nickname starts to kick in. (But that’s anecdotally, I’ve never had one.)

Honestly, IMO by far the best clothing for paddling is, alas, not the safest: a base layer of heavyweight merino wool, a fleece pullover, and a good-quality waterproof paddle jacket with neoprene neck and cuffs.

Back in my whitewater slalom racing days, I trained all the time on whitewater in 20-degree weather and 33-degree water with ice forming in it. All we’d wear in our slalom boats were spandex cycling shorts and bare feet inside the boat…a base layer top under a paddle jacket and our PFD. That’s it. At the end of workouts, I’d literally be coated in ice and be toasty-warm! :smiley: (And if I flipped, which happened once in a while, I wouldn’t even pause upside-down but roll right back up again.) My legs and bare feet never got cold because of body heat trapped in low-volume slalom boats by the sprayskirt.

But I’m a sea kayaker now…and wouldn’t want to end up in frigid water a mile (or more) from shore.

#16

Fascinating!

#17

Using a wicking insulating layer under a drysuit does a lot to keep you relatively dry. With a wetsuit, you will often be warmer in the water than out of out if not keeping active or wearing an insulating layer on top of it. I find it much easier to regulate body temperature with a drysuit due to the looser fit.

The whole issue, wetsuit or drysuit, is whether or not it will extend your survival time in the water. The average time for the USCG to arrive on scene is about 1½ hours from when they receive a call. Somewhat shorter if a helicopter is dispatched and they can find you.

#18

The bottom line is that I agree a drysuit is probably the better option…but it doesn’t win by a landslide, LOL. Both can keep you warm and alive for 90 minutes or longer in 50-degree water. colder than that I’m not sure…because for extremely cold water, you would absolutely run the risk of overheating while paddling (due to either adding layers under a drysuit, or wearing a 6 or 7mm-thick wetsuit).

So I think for most comparative purposes, we should make the “cutoff” for water temp 50 degrees. Any colder, and you’re going to be hot when paddling (possibly too hot).

The simple reality is that long-term immersion safety in cold water is fundamentally incompatible with an athletic, high-activity event where you’re likely to be exerting yourself at aerobic theshholds (or possibly higher) for long periods of time.

It’s also worth mentioning that while wetsuits clearly aren’t as popular with paddlers, they WILL keep you warm enough to survive for hours in cold water—as surfers demonstrate (immersed in winter, in the Pacific Ocean, at places like Mavericks!).

I’ll also add that a lot of how well a given piece of gear will work for an individual depends on that individual’s level of exertion while paddling. I’ve seen many paddlers who barely work at all (both on rivers and in the ocean). They drift a lot, and when they paddle, they often aren’t working any harder than 50-60% of their potential maximum. And if you’re lilydipping…then of course a drysuit will be more comfortable for you than if your heartrate is 160 and you’re sweating like crazy…because you can add all kinds of toasty layers beneath your drysuit and never worry about getting hot or sweating!

If anyone thinks drysuits are the “pinnacle of immersion safety and paddling comfort” I’d say you’re insane, LOL. Maybe “the best we currently have,” but I suspect in 10-20 years someone will invent something that makes a drysuit look like this:

image
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:laughing:

#19

I’ve always known that Goretex lining in boots was a stupid application. I worked in the outdoor gear industry when the material was developed and went to training seminars on the technology: for water vapor to transpire through the micropores in the PTFE film it has to be UNDER PRESSURE and also needs to have the outer layer of whatever it is sandwiched in to also allow the free movement of vapor molecules. Hiking boots are generally not made of breathable material. Back in the old days they were mostly leather, which of course got waterproofed with wax or oil based penetrants. Sweat coming off a person’s feet through their socks is mostly moisture – the small amount that becomes vapor through body warmth is in direct contact with the boot lining, no airspace to provide pressure to cause it to move through and also having actual liquid contact the material eventually clogs some of the pores with surface tension. And where is any vapor that makes it through supposed to go from there once it passes the film and hits the waterproofed outer shell of the boot? No, adding Goretex or analogs of it under other brand names only makes your socks soggier. It has always been nothing but a marketing gimmick and I won’t buy footwear that includes that dubious “feature.”

You are pretty confident in your dismissal of drysuits. There are plenty of narratives from people who survived for hours and even days in cold water after losing their boats offshore due to wearing them. And the people who use diving drysuits in cold water would find your attitude curious as well. North Face founder, Doug Tomkins, who died of cold water immersion (2 hours in 40 F water) while kayaking in Chile had foolishly ventured out without his dry suit – others with them survived the severe condition change that caused many in the group to capsize and be unable to reach shore or recover their boats.

Also, your comment “because for extremely cold water, you would absolutely run the risk of overheating while paddling (due to either adding layers under a drysuit, or wearing a 6 or 7mm-thick wetsuit).” – says the guy who has never used a drysuit in any cold water. The people I know who are using drysuits are not “lily dipping”. And for multi-day trips wet suits are pretty impractical compared to dry suits.

Another survival factor is wind – when your skin stays dry it doesn’t lose heat to air movement as fast as when it is wet. Unless you’ve brought along good windproofs to go over a wet suit, you risk hypothermia if you are offshore or stranded ashore with only a wet suit on you.

Why don’t you find an outfitter who rents drysuits (you might have to book a guided trip to do that) and see what the difference is for yourself? Might be more informative than arguing dismissively with people who have used them for years and appreciate what they can do. Maybe the experience will confirm your bias, maybe not.

Cold Water Boot Camp clip comparing various clothing for immersion in 45 F water:

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#20

Be sure to take a video of putting it on and taking it off if you buy a zipperless suit :grinning: