Yes
Some decent gear capacity and reasonable speed. Both my Q700 and Pintail qualify nicely. Very different boats - so I don’t think my idea of touring is particularly narrow.
There is no SOT I’m aware of yet that is the equivalent of either for combined comfort/security in conditions/stability/speed/storage. You can ID SOTs that have some of these characteristics - but not all.
In general, I count kayaks with functional hatches, deck rigging, 16’ or longer, beam 23" or under, most around 21". Not any fixed spec range though, just a general range/type. If we split hairs we’d have to also find the lines between sea/expedition/tour. I don’t think anyone can.
Scupper Pro vs. SINK
Having read this whole thread again, and speaking from a beginner/intermediate skill point of view, I can offer a couple of hands-on observations to summarize my earlier posts.
SEA-KINDLY HANDLING, up to 2+ feet. (Other paddlers disappear up to their shoulders when in a trough). Scupper Pro is excellent, felt every bit as secure as my Mariner II. Easy to control in cross-chop and quartering wind and waves.
SPEED/EFFICIENCY. Scupper Pro paddles cruises easily at around 4 mph. with no gear on board. It quickly hits “the wall” when I try to paddle faster. No comparison to the higher cruising speed, glide and efficiency of the Mariner II.
SOT vs. SINK ATTIRE. Irrelevant since you have to dress for immersion, whatever you’re paddling.
SAFETY - I paddle alone most of the time, 7-10 mile paddles along Lake Erie shoreline. If I dump, I can more easily re-enter the Scupper than the Mariner II. I keep a close eye on weather radar and marine forecasts. I feel “safer” in the Scupper. I usually stay off Lake Erie if a front is scheduled to come through. I also don’t stray far from shore, so getting off the water quickly isn’t the major issue that it would be if I was paddling 2 miles out. I’d not be inclined to do that alone anyway.
No, you missed a key point
The original poster asked about SOT vs. SINK, including use in EXTREMELY COLD WATER.
Safety is one issue, and since everybody has been butting heads over that one I will pass on that aspect. It may come down to whether or not you have a good roll and/or re-entry, something that is up to the paddler more than anything else. The original poster may not have a good roll/re-entry now but just because YOU do not care to learn them, that does not mean he or she feels the same way.
Comfort is another factor. A SOT in icy water is less comfortable than a SINK, period. Even while wearing a drysuit. It’s not just how wet a ride it is–it’s also a matter of wind chill, and in this matter SINKs are superior. (Which is precisely why I like SOTs on a hot summer day.)
those weren’t my words
somebody else said that, not me.
judgement, skills and equipment
In that order…beginners may have trouble with the first two but at least we can set them up with some relative safety by giving them the third in the form of an SOT.
I have paddle one before
I was meant 16 foot SOT’s (Tarpon 160)
really, it is that stable
at the time i bought it, sight unseen, the only other kayak i had paddled was a mariner 2 (considered stable, i believe). i was able to just jump on the futura 2 and start paddling, no learning curve, no nothing. it’s a good beginner’s ski that would serve the purpose of a very fast SOT for most competent paddlers. hell, you can paddle the futura 2 while sitting on the back deck.
Tsunami
Well, where did all the Bay Area paddlers go?
There are so many Tsunami SOTs around here we can’t help to notice them. You can’t say too much about the rough water handling capabilities since they’re build for coastal rock garden exploration. In capable hands, these boats go places 90% of us don’t even dare thinking about!
I don’t know the detail of gear capacity of these boats. But since I’ve be on camping trips with them, they obviously can bring their own share of camping need. What more does one need?
So, touring boats for open water, the ultimate sit-on-top.
Yep I agree the futura II is stable
More primary than my explorer for example with reasonable secondary. For someone looking to make a conservative transition to a surfski a great choice.
Original question
The original question was whether one can paddle an open kayak in Michigan in the winter with warmer clothing. The answer is yes. Those who wanted to argue about the performance potentials of SOTs vs. SINKs should have started a new thread.
A list of SOT touring sea kayaks
OK I’ll name a couple for the newbies. I already know you know these yaks but I guess your still stokin’ the flames.
2 touring sea kayak SOTs:
- Heritage Expedition 17’4" LOA, 16’9" LWL, 26" Max Beam, 22" Waterline Beam
- Heritage Nomad 16’6" LOA, 15’8" LWL, 26" Max Beam, 22" Waterline Beam.
I’ll let you list the others.
First I apologize for attributing that
quote to you. But the sentiments still hold for whomever said it.
Second, I have no problem with putting beginners onto SOT’s. Heck I started that way and still own 2 SOT’s.
But the original question was pertaining to going out in the Great Lakes in the winter.
That is BIG water - much bigger than you normally see (except for when you are having one of your too frequent hurricanes) and I don’t think a beginner belongs on that kind of water in either boat.
However, given a skilled paddler - the SINK will still handle bigger water better than the SOT.
I don’t differentiate beam…
… width on Heritage designs, as the sponsons are only out for the water for lighter folks on VERY flat water.
I’m familiar with how the boats are designed - and the performance theory - I just don’t but it. Add some weight or throw some chop in the mix and they are sloggin’ it with the rest of the fat boys. If it is flat, and you are light - then you need skinny boat balance to keep those hull extensions airborne. For me, no thanks - give me a hull with clean lines.
I had a Shearwater - which is close enough spec wise (size/hatches/etc.) to be a true touring boat - but it does not handle wind and wave as well as a SINK. I would not choose it for coastal touring - some might.
BTW - Expedition was already mentioned.
So, what do you paddle more?
Q700 or Futura II? Why? (besides location of boats - you can change that)
which boat?
i’m not sure if you were asking peter or me, but i’ll answer. i leave the futura 2 in long island, at my father’s place. so, i get to use it only about 1 or 2 weeks/ year. this year i didn’t use it at all, because seawave incredibly graciously lent me his mark 1 for the entire time. so, i got to use my “own boat” while on vacation (how cool is that?!!?) down here, i use the mark 1 almost exclusively until it gets too cold, in pretty much any condition i can find here or at the coast. once you get used to the sort of connection to the water that a ski gives you, it is very hard to go back to being enclosed in a big wide sea kayak.
andrew
Big Ground Swell
– Last Updated: Oct-01-04 1:14 PM EST –
Not necessarily just a surf thing. We get big off shore ground swells that can knock you off a boat pretty easy.
And even lake Tahoe gets 40-50 mph winds and 4-5' waves off shore...
And that is one reason I bought a SINK and want to get a combat roll. When it really gets bad off shore, it is better to stay inside the boat.
Actually, in the surf zone I want to be able to bail whenever I want, but I more comfortable swimming in that type environment than trying to control a boat. My swimming skills are better than my boating skills, and always will be. I was a professional lifeguard for almost 10 years.
“Messing About” Is More Fun!
– Last Updated: Oct-01-04 1:18 PM EST –
Really, my idea of fun is taking my Mars, or even my Frenzy, just off shore and playing in really big swells. Like a rollercoaster. My favorite thing is to make it go "Boof". I don't have to go more than a mile or two to get into big water around here most of the year.
I am not a goal oriented type that needs to quanity performane. Fun is a very subjective thing.
Long distances on flat water kind of bore me.
another 40 posts ?
since I was here last ? … gawd
LOL !
I don’t have time to read them.
But … (and I know you can’t WAIT to read this) for the majority of people who WOULD ask “which is better” (near total rookies)… SOTS are safer … because those people … are likely to NOT take classes and practice for hours on end !
… they just want to have fun …
Thats just the way it is … YOU … (whoever) can’t change that.
… they can always graduate to ‘better’ more skill intensive boats at a later time … some most definitely will … many would not.
Most people here who are arguing with that … ARE … the better more skilled practicers -class takers - studiers.
… they are thinking of whats good for THEM … not the people who usually ask the question.
The Aussies have it all wrong huh ?
… they are clueless ?
… there boats are all slow ?
uhuh … and I can roll the Titanic
: ()
Revenge and Shearwater
The Revenge is not a fast touring boat. It is an expedition boat. The Revenge and Viking are both cargo haulers that can handle some rough water, but more like a truck than a sports car. I was thinking extended Baja kayak camping trip when I bought it, but that keeps not happening for me…
The Shearwater is limited. Very nice for flatwater, but not good for rough stuff. But I really enjoy it when conditions allow.
The real reason I bought a SINK is just because most of my NORCAL paddling friends have SINKS. Most of them are into touring, and SINKs are better for that. I like touring with friends, but I get a little bored when I do it by myself.
Other than Tsunami Chuck, most of us are beginners when it comes to SINKS. I just thought it would be fun to share the learning exprience with them. It is another aspect of kayaking, and I want to try it all.
SINKs are better for touring, but touring is just one aspect of kayaking. My fantasy kayaking trip would include as much swimming and diving as boating, and it would probably be on a SOT for that reason.
Greyak you should try an Expedition
or a Nomad if you get a chance.
I disagree with your assessment of the effective beam of these yak’s. If the yak is not severly overloaded very little of the designed in “sponson” will be in contact with the water regardless of wave conditions unless you are edging a turn. Take a look at my picture posted in the picture forum of the SOT board and you’ll see what I mean. BTW I’m at the upper weight limit for the Nomad and on the day that picture was taken I was packing about 10 lbs of gear.
I also don’t intend, or want, to come across as a SOT only zealot. I just wish to convey that at this stage in my paddling life I think SOT’s like the Nomad and Expedition suit me just fine and give me all of the capability and functionality (and then some) that I need. As you know I just wish there was more availability of the lighter composite versions of them!
One of these days I might own a SINK too, but for right now, I don’t need to.