I have been considering getting a sit on top Ocean Kayak. The Drifter or the Prowler. I would like to do inland as well as Lake MI once in a while. I am interested to hear if people like one vs. the other, especially when it comes to the cooler weather. Occassionally, I would be going into Lake MI in Nov…or even in Feb when the weather warms up once in a while…Do I need a closed kayak or can you kayak in an open with warmer clothes?
Thanks
Dress for immersion regardless
For paddling Lake Michigan in the winter, you need a dry suit, whether your boat is decked or open.
Size?
Unless you are a really big guy, I think you would enjoy the Prowler much more than the Drifter. It would be much faster.
You do need a dry suit for Lake Michigan in the winter for either, but you still might be more comfortable in a sit inside.
SINK OR SOT, IN WINTER WATER UP NORTH
you BETTER dress for immersion…!
And if you get the Drifter, and indeed ARE a Big Guy, AND you get one of the original designs, you’ll need to dress for immersion because your bottom WILL be “immersed”.
The Prowler is a better, faster, nicer boat all round. Had I had the opportunity to get one at the same kind of comparative savings that I got when we bought our first boats, I’d’ve gone with the Prowler over my infamous Scupper Pro TW. But it’s not worth the difference to me to swap at this point…
The Prowler’s a fine SOT, but don’t leave without looking at the WS Tarpons -especially the 160 & 140, or the Perception Illusion or Bimini, or the Necky Dolphin among others. All have their adherents and promoters, all with good reason, for them and the kinds of kayaking they do. You’ll need to consider stability vs. speed, capacity vs. speed/stability, size -for both a) river/creek/winding trail maneaverability vs. open water (lake, ocean) tracking ability and b) how it affects toting and lifting your boat, and of course, cost.
You may want to check over at
http://sit-on-topkayaking.com/
and pose your question on the ‘Choosing A Kayak’ section of their Forum as well.
Good luck and good waters as you
Paddle On!
-Frank in Miami
I have both.
Living where you are if I just had one it would be a sit-in.
If I lived in South Florida, it would be a sink.
Whatever you get, make sure you dress for immersion if you are going out in cold water.
Cheers,
JackL
Tough choice
I own both and enjoy both types immensely. Though I do favor my sit inside. An open cockpit boat can be used in cold water without problems as long as you dress for the water conditions. If you’re thinking Lake Michigan in February think drysuit. It can be done and has been. Here’s a link to a story about a guy who used an open cockpit kayak to circumnavigate Vancouver Island, BC. Now that’s cold water!!
http://www.topkayaker.net/Articles/Destinations/Vancouver.html
SOT or SINK
I purchased a Scupper Pro TW for paddling/fishing on Lake Erie. It’s performed very well in the short period waves and chop we get around here. Although I’m planning to paddle wearing a drysuit when the temps fall, I’m also figuring that time in the water, should I capsize will be less with the Scupper SOT vs. the re-entry procedures required with one of my SINKS. I don’t have a roll, so have been thinking the Scupper will be a safer boat for cold water paddling. I also value the narrower beam on the Scupper Pro (26") which is a bit closer to SINK beam.
SINK vs SOT
– Last Updated: Sep-21-04 3:52 PM EST –
The fact that SINK pilots will warn you not to paddle a SINK in difficult (or cold) conditions without at least 2 other competent paddlers paddling with you ....
... should be all you need to know.
(they need the other two to paddle alongside to hold onto their boat - to stabilize it as the 'capsizee' struggles to get back into its small cockpit - while trying to remain upright)
They say ... "If there are not three .. the trip shall not be"
... and thats for your safety.
... and its based on the fact that you will die from hypothermia when you can't get back into the SINK in waves.
... which seems to be prety common when paddling alone (or even with just ONE more paddler) ... in cold conditions and chop.
From memory ... I'd say at least 4 kayakers died/drowned in Lake MI and Superior within the last year from just that.
In a SOT ... if your paddle is leashed ... and you don't let go of it (during a capsize) ... you can be back in the boat in a matter of seconds.
(even alone)
With a SINK ... the paddler struggles and struggles to get back in the half swamped boat ... and he keeps falling off as waves keep hitting him ... even with another paddler helping
... after two hours with the capsizee struggling and getting weaker and weaker in the cold water ... the friend has to make a decision .. and breaks for shore leaving his dieing friend .. hoping he can get help from shore.
... and ... with a SINK ... you also need ..
.. a 'paddle float'
.. and a pump
.. and maybe 'float bags'
.. and a skirt (or two)
.. and rescue lessons and practice
.. and rolling lessons and lots of rolling practice.
- seems like an easy decision to me
Excuse me?
>… after two hours with the capsizee struggling and getting weaker and weaker in the cold water … the friend has to make a decision … and breaks for shore leaving his dieing friend … hoping he can get help from shore.<
TWO HOURS???
Should the kayaker be out in that kind of condition in the first place? Whatever the water temperature, if he can’t get back in within 2 hours, of how many attempts? And even with help of another kayaker???
I read this as someone who should have pratice a lot more rescue, or stay next to shore, before even attempting to paddle out! Never mind winter in MI! Yeah, if one isn’t ready to invest the time to learn proper rescue, one may be “better off” staying with a SOT.
Cold water kayak
I agree with JackL…in Florida, an inexperienced SINK paddler like me has almost nothing to fear about capsizing unless I let go of the kayak in a strong off shore wind. If I were paddling in cold water, however, I would choose a sit-On-Top.
Lake Michigan water drops below 40 degrees in January. At that temperature, you only have 7 minutes of useful work and less than 25 minutes before you lose consciousness. You better be with a boat you can climb on blind folded with one hand tied behind your back…which includes just about any sit-on-top.
Excuse me 2?
“With a SINK … the paddler struggles and struggles to get back in the half swamped boat … and he keeps falling off as waves keep hitting him … even with another paddler helping”
Speak for yourself!
That scenario would really be only likely to happen to a pair of unskilled novices with rec boats - who through laziness/ignorance have never gained any knowledge/respect of those conditions or their own limitations therein. They’d have to lack the training/practice of skills that anyone but an idiot knows are prerequisites for being out in those conditions.
The only difference for a wide plastic SOT paddler (who usually has the same level of skill as a rec boat paddler - as there is little way to go beyond those skills) is the false sense of security provided by the self bailing feature. It’s a great feature, but alone does not provided sufficient safety to warrant paddling rough/cold waters. Not by a long shot. Too much else can go wrong.
ALL kayaks are inherently dangerous to in any conditions. The risks are more easily managed in calm/warm water - but are still there. Most accidents and deaths are in relatively calm waters. As conditions increase in severity (wind/wave/temps) so increases the risk, and so should the level of skill and preparation needed to be out in it - with any boat.
Any real safety requires multiple layers of defense. Those involve the paddler’s skills, their safety/support equipment, AND an appropriate craft for that paddler. Just thinking a certain kind of boat will keep you safe does not make it so!
Believe all that SOTs are “safe” BS if it helps you justify limiting yourself to SOTs (nothing wrong with someone only paddling them, just your thinking about them as expressed here is extremely short sighted and bordering on dangerous/bad advice).
FYI - I began “really” paddling (after a brief time in an IK) on a WS Tarpon 160 SOT (great boat!). I paddled it 1400 miles. A good bit of that offshore. Over 90% of those miles, and all ocean miles, were paddled ALONE. All that was before going to a SINK - so I am NOT talking from some SINK only, SOTs are junk/ toys position.
So who are you to judge safety for others Barge? Do you have that many SOT miles? How much ocean SOT time (OK, I’ll count exposed Great Lakes)? Alone out there? Any SINK miles or skills at all?
To be honest, my transition to SINKs came somewhat reluctantly. I thought somewhat as you did then (not that long ago), and really liked my SOT, but quickly realized I had been holding a limited view built on largely fear and ignorance. Once I actually began paddling a SINK I never looked back.
I actually agree, as long as…
… we’re talking about casual paddlers who stay close to shore.
For those who through choice may not want to do, or through limitations (mental or physical) may not be able to do more skills work and simply want to paddle once in a while that seemingly backward assesment (as SOTs are usually thought of as warm water craft) makes some (limited) sense.
For those willing/able to put in a little more effort - the choices open up a bit - and the reverse tends to make more sense (at least up North. As Jim mentions - we can get a way with a lot in our warm waters, but that really only gives us slack as far as clothing goes - it should not releive our need to learn useful skills).
As Usual…
– Last Updated: Sep-21-04 8:46 PM EST –
As usual, I think both sides are a little over stated here......
In answer to your original question, either can work, but you will need a dry suit for either one for water below 50 degress. Drysuits are pretty expensive. Check prices. That may settle the issue for you.
Which is best? As you can tell by now, there is some debate over that! In the end, what is best for you will depend on your own abilities, goals, preferences, and ambitions...
Frankly, my best advice is stay off Lake Michigan in winter either way. It is really no place for a first year boater. Until you get a couple years exprience, and are really comfortable with the basic skill sets for the boat you are using.
Start by paddling in good weather and good conditions only. Use the good conditions to practice skills approprite to the boat. Get an earlier start and a later finish each year.
Meeting overstatement with overstatement
So I guess we can throw away all those injunctions to read Deep Trouble, then, since no one but an idiot in a rec boat could possibly get into trouble in cold, rough water.
Seriously, doesn’t the truth lie somewhere in between? An expert paddler (and roller) may be safe in anything, but for the beginner/intermediate without a roll, a boat that’s easier to re-enter has a safety advantage over a boat that’s harder to re-enter. Depending on the paddler’s objectives, that may be a big factor or a small factor, but it’s worth pointing out (preferably in a less inflammatory way, though).
Man, you SOT ONLY guys are touchy!
– Last Updated: Sep-21-04 9:23 PM EST –
Think I covered that middle ground well enough in the middle of my post (particually coming from SOTs paddler that only went to a SINK just over a year ago - I am not anti-SOT at all, just anti-complacency/SOT as substitute for skills (Heck, I'm so open minded on this I even somewhat agreed with Jim!).
'Cuda's advice below is the most useful so far! A beginner on the G'Lakes in Winter in any boat is a VERY bad idea indeed!
Touchy?
Come on, Kris, you gotta admit you can be a little inflammatory sometimes! I quote:
“The only difference for a wide plastic SOT paddler (who usually has the same level of skill as a rec boat paddler - as there is little way to go beyond those skills) is the false sense of security provided by the self bailing feature. It’s a great feature, but alone does not provided sufficient safety to warrant paddling rough/cold waters. Not by a long shot. Too much else can go wrong.”
Come paddle Scuppers with some of the folks down here and then tell them they have no more skills than somebody in a rec boat on a pond. It will be fun! Or maybe go up and tell the same thing to Rob Lyons, who uses SOTs in the PNW and BC. While I wouldn’t necessarily recommend it, I learned to paddle by just going out into an often rough (albeit warm) stretch of ocean, paddling until I capsized, and repeating as needed until I didn’t capsize so much.
Now, having said that, I will admit again that my next boat will probably be a SINK (if I don’t get a surf boat first), because there are just a lot more attractive hulls available with closed decks than open ones. But no skills in a SOT? Generally no ROLLING skills, because most SOTs are tough to roll at best. But there are actually a few fun things that you can do even with the boat right-side-up, and some of them require some degree of skill.
Why do I keep responding to these threads?
Excuse Me 3 !!!
Owning both SOT’s and closed deck boats gives me the right to be able to comment on this too.
It appears that Barge doesn’t have any knowlege or skill in a closed deck boat.
“(they need the other two to paddle alongside to hold onto their boat - to stabilize it as the ‘capsizee’ struggles to get back into its small cockpit - while trying to remain upright)
They say … “If there are not three … the trip shall not be””
Have you never seen a solo recovery…ie roll, Re-Enter & Roll, Paddlefloat Re-Enter and Roll (you don’t even have to know how to roll to do this one), Paddlefloat Re-Entry? These are skills that if practiced will allow a paddler to get back in his boat in less than a minute. All of the people I paddle with practice these and can do them.
If you are paddling with others, an assisted rescue only needs one other paddler even in extremely rough conditions. I have done this both in practice and for real in 10’ breaking swells with 20 knot winds. It’s not a problem if you have practiced the skills.
In rough water, a sea worthy closed deck boat can handle the conditions better than most SOT’s (I’m excluding SOT’s like the Tsunami Rangers use as they are not that common).
In cold weather, a closed deck boat will usually keep you warmer and definitely drier.
As far as paddling the Great Lakes in the Winter is concerned, I would recommend having extremely good skills and the proper clothing before venturing out. A beginner paddler has no business on any kind of open water alone - TAKE LESSONS & PRACTICE in the conditions you will be paddling in.
SOTS
I paddle a SOT in cold weather and I do stuff some of you ocean boys wouldn’t dream of. A SOT is more comfortable to paddle while wearing a dry-suit. That makes it easier to dress properly. In a SOT you can cool off if you start to over-heat by spashing water on yourself. Can’t do that with a closed cockpit.
I’ll be paddling my Perception Illusion down the Verde in AZ this Feb. Anyone want to go? There’s at least 100 sets of rapids to run in a 50 mile trip. Water temps will be around 50 air temps around 65.
“usually”
… as in most, majority of SOT paddlers.
I did not say always/all SOT paddlers. You spend all your paddling time in the ocean and also paddle a ski. Clearly you are not representative of most SOT paddlers on these board - and certainly NOT in the same league as someone new to kayaking asking the SOT vs. SINK question. As such, I’d think you might understand the point I was trying to make - which the part of my post you find so “inflammatory” gets right to the heart of.
Things might not seem so inflammatory if you stopped taking them personally (“touchy”) and them in the larger perspective of the thread and considered the much wider novice (largely lurker) audience also reading it.
Mahalo
“wouldn’t dream of”???
– Last Updated: Sep-22-04 1:45 AM EST –
Oh, now that one deserves some elaboration. Don't expect to float that one out there with nobody calling you on it!
As for the one AMAZING skill you have listed so far:
Can't splash to cool off in a SINK? What?! Think before you post! Trust, me - I paddle in South Florida heat and can splash myself to cool off just fine in my SINK. With a light colored kayak and only half my body in the SUN I'm considerably cooler than I was being fully exposed on my SOT.
So please, do tell! In addition to splashing yourself, what other fantastic SOT skills have you developed that are so far beyond what's possible for us lowly closed deck sea kayakers? The roughest condition SOT paddlers I've heard of, the Tsunami Rangers, don't talk trash like that (and many paddle SINKs). Be careful talking river BS too, as there are lots of closed deck WW paddlers here that will call you on that stuff.
Your kayak isn't the only Illusion you have! Or is that delusion?
PS - Why do I have the B-52's song "Private Idaho" running through my head now?
http://www.songlyrics.com/song-lyrics/B-52s/Miscellaneous/Private_Idaho/3845.html