There are/were kayaks produced for serious travel that had neither
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Paul Caffyn hacked off the ‘fixed skeg’ on his Nordkapp HM (see @roym’s picture for ‘fixed skeg’) and replaced with rudder travelling up the east coast of Australia with following (quartering) SE trade winds.
Just an anecdote.
But I will agree with previous comments, a lot depends on the person.
In Paul Caffyn’s case, he is a strong paddler, he utilized the swells quite a bit to go faster (pushed himself a bit for much extra speed).
I went up the north coast of Oz in the ‘trade wind’ season a few times. The first time with a ruddered boat (Arctic Raider). The rudder was ok, but I was not ok with fixing it several times (bent on various things), and once really got in trouble when I got flipped in surf, the rudder ‘semi-deployed’; due to heavy surf I did not want to go in to fix rudder, paddled whole day with rudder in bad position. In future trips, I used a (rope) skeg’d NDK Explorer. I’m a ‘slow’ paddler - did not necessarily want to ‘push’ myself to utilize the following seas. The skeg worked well for me. (and the ‘rope’ skeg was quite easily maintained)
(btw, my 1st kayak was a Nordkapp HM, I used to joke that it took me the width of Lake Superior to turn it)
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Quote from @raisins:
[Paul Caffyn hacked off the ‘fixed skeg’ on his Nordkapp HM (see @roym’s picture for ‘fixed skeg’) and replaced with rudder travelling up the east coast of Australia with following (quartering) SE trade winds.]
Reply:
Wasn’t the Nordkapp HM prone to lee cocking if not loaded carefully … anyone? If so, I wonder if that wasn’t part of Paul’s motivation for the modification.
Another quote from @raisins:
[In future trips, I used a (rope) skeg’d NDK Explorer. I’m a ‘slow’ paddler - did not necessarily want to ‘push’ myself to utilize the following seas. The skeg worked well for me. (and the ‘rope’ skeg was quite easily maintained)]
Reply:
I had an NDK Romany (classic) with a rope skeg. Like raisins, I found it very easy to maintain. Now I have a SKUK/NDK Explorer with a Karitek skeg, which has caused no problems. This version of the Explorer rarely needs the skeg. And I am likely a slower paddler than raisins … maybe even slower than molasses.
The picture I posted is that of my Nordkapp Jubilee. The one most people judge the HM on, is the earlier model . The Jubilee has almost 2 inches more rocker in the stern than the earlier Nordkapp did. Completely different kayaks. FYI ALL kayaks take careful loading to preform correctly, so that is no different for an HM than for any other kayak loaded to go for days. {balance point is important }
Yes, but rsevenic’s point was that it makes a difference whether the “uncarefully loaded” (or simply unloaded) kayak has a tendency to weathercock or a tendency to leecock.
A skeg can only cancel out weathercocking. It can’t cancel out leecocking. A rudder can cancel out both.
So if a kayak has a tendency to leecock unless you do a lot of effort to load it unevenly (more weight in the front), it may make a lot of sense to prefer a rudder over a skeg for that particular kayak.
I’ve never had to load my kayak front heavy {so it plows}. Interesting, in all the years of reading skeg vs rudder vs bare. I’ve never heard the argument for one preference over any other because of sloppy loading or improper seat placement. A first!
I feel that you have a strong desire to not stay neutral to this discussion. I am out.
"roym
I’ve never had to load my kayak front heavy {so it plows}. Interesting, in all the years of reading skeg vs rudder vs bare. I’ve never heard the argument for one preference over any other because of sloppy loading or improper seat placement. A first!"
I think the point was that the particular kayak was more finicky on the loading and I can see on a long trip where excessively particular loading and the time that could take might have caused someone to modify the boat and go to the rudder. Plus it was telling the story of what one guy did, not stating that this was a general rule of how to do things.
Personally I am not familiar with the boat so that is just from what I read above.
I don’t think the point was sloppy loading though but rather an extra five or ten minutes every time you pack up camp and continue down the coast being avoided by the changeup.
Well then…I have , here at my house 4 Nordkapp’s . One is a early model HMC, I have 2 Jubilee’s {one is the 3 piece sectional HM and the other is a HS with a skeg} and the 4th Nordkapp is a LV. {with a skeg} {this combination covers 4 different hulls with 3 different amounts of rocker both bow and stern, difficult to make blanket statements using the name Nordkapp}
I re read the entire thread, and still see that a poorly balanced packing job is not cured by a rudder, or a skeg, or a bare bottom…it’s still a poorly paced kayak
after the first day {on any multi day or multi week trip} The balance of the packing has been adjusted and packed the same way from then on…doesn’t matter whether rudder, skeg, or bare. {the kayak still needs it’s proper balance.
If a Kayak continues to be improperly packed day after day…sloppy packing and it will not be cured by which kayak helper you chose.
My understanding of the problem that Paul ran into was big waves and having to make adjustments all the time so he opted to install a rudder in order to steer
I hope this clears some of what I have meant, {I just pictured the 3 piece because the statement was made saying that for serious camping or expedition one would not chose a bare hull} and this is a serious expedition kayak. {no skeg box to take up pack-able space no rudder to depend on or skeg …neither to repair or maintain. and the hull always reacts the same. And designed to carry a load. This was the main expedition kayak produced by Valley for many years.
I definitely prefer skeg. And for the right reasons. First, my sciatic means that a foam bulkhead is necessary. Rudder pedals are not an option for my comfort.
Second, skeg boats look cooler. People tend to think you’re a good paddler if you have a skeg boat. If you wear the right clothing, you can definitely fool people into thinking you’re sponsored. And if you keep your mouth shut, they might think you’re British!
So skeg for me. Yes, I concede that rudders are more functional, less prone to failure, and easier on the body after a long day. But my sciatica says “no thanks” and my ego agrees!
My antidote:
I had my Nord LV lightly loaded on a day trip. Conditions deteriorated and set home directly into the wind. The boat kept getting blown off the wind to the point I turned and ran downwind to a beach where I could ballast the bow enough to head upwind.
Later that trip there was a rescue situation that i couldn’t help in do to instability.
That boat was over my head and soon to be sold.
That day I was never so happy to be with a small group of friends.
A little off topic, but the Nordkapps have a fascinating history. Some of it is recounted in:
http://www.ukseakayakguidebook.co.uk/nordkapp/art_nordkapp.htm
This also mentions Nick Crowhurst, who also modified the HM by removing the hull’s built in skeg and adding a deployable Karitek skeg. The various Nordkapps are beautiful boats, but I turn 79 this month and am unlikely to purchase one. Instead I’ll need a wooden boat for a proper Viking funeral.
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My two main boats, both skegged, load completely opposite of each other to handle best. But why is due to the hull design - one has a quite loose bow and is officially oversized for me (Romany), the other is properly sized for me but has a very tight bow albeit still a disposition to weathercock. I need to put a bit more weight in the stern of the second to help the skeg to get better grip. In the Romany I bias some weight at the nose to tame it, unless in surf.
I have paddled out on a morning here or there where I was deficient in caffeine and got it backwards. In the second one, sized properly for me, it can have some noticeable and really not desirable results.
I can see the idea of altering loading if you are out there and conditions rise so that there is a control advantage to be gained by messing with the balance a lot. But it seems like that is going to be a pretty rare event.
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One other mention about ruddered boats. I would NEVER buy a ruddered boat that the whole foot rest moves up and down. The gas peddle design is the ONLY choice you should EVER get if getting a boat with rudder. If the whole foot rest moves you get no support for say rolling. Super BAD design.
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There have been several boats here recently that have been suggested that would be the best use for them…
PS: I just gave my wooden boat away before anyone gets any ideas.
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Having owned an HM for a while, I’d say that’s one of the best modifications you could make to it. There were conditions where I simply couldn’t get it to turn, no matter how hard I edged it. The worst was when paddling backward. I did find that the balance of the boat was precise enough that if it started to lee-cock, I could correct it by leaning forward and if it started to weathercock, leaning back would neutralize it. However, it tracked like a freight train, which was often a pain. I would classify it as a good “learning boat”, since it definitely provides an education in boat handling.
The other mod that makes a world of difference is to cut out the high-mounted seat and lower it down onto the hull (I know that the high seat is designed to provide maneuverability with the boat loaded, but I never paddled it that way). The improvement in stability with the lowered seat is dramatic! My boat instantly went from “be careful, as you never know what it will do” to “utterly relaxing” to paddle. I loved paddling it waves because it handled them so well. These days, I have a Pintail for that, which has a whole different set of quirks.
I owned a Betsy Bay Aral, which was a very nice handling boat, with no real need for a skeg. However, I’ve come to appreciate boats that can be easily trimmed to suit the conditions, and that generally requires a skeg (I’m rudder-phobic).
On one of my skin-on-frame boats, I rigged a sliding weight that I could position anywhere between the back of the cockpit and ~16" forward of the stern tip, using a looped cord in the cockpit. You’d be amazed how much of an effect even a 1# weight can have on the trim of a boat when you move it far aft. Unfortunately, you can’t easily do that in a boat with bulkheads.
Another idea that I haven’t actually tried yet is “air skegs”. Considering that wetherhelm is caused predominantly by wind, it seems somewhat odd that we’ve chosen to correct it using something in the water. An “air skeg” system would consist of one blade/sail mounted on the deck near the end of the bow and (perhaps) another at the stern, depending on the inherent weatherhelm characteristics of the boat. Raise the air skeg at the bow to correct weathercocking (by increasing the surface area exposed to the wind), or the one at the stern to correct leecocking. I have no idea of exactly what size or configuration would be required, but could be a fun experiment. It would have the added benefit that you’d never have to worry about it getting jammed with sand or gravel.
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Isn’t that called a “Ketch”
Sort of like turn signals on vehicles.
I don’t know, is it?
Maybe a “Yawl” depending on aft mast (mizzenmast} placement…