semi-dry suit
with booties is comfortable late fall. Neoprene is on the cool side. For many too cool tending to hypothermic reactions.
When temps are cool nothing like warmth.
I take cold showers every day. But temps in south Florida allow this.
I have a selection of socks lately used with Teva sandals. I would use polyester tennis pro socks for the water if I didn’t have neo socks. Question: how would socks fit under neo socks ?
The poly socks are something like very thick cotton white gym socks.
Around the grounds, acrylic/nylon/polyester thick looped gym socks. Great ! Great in the kayak but too water absorbant for wading then paddling.
Both types allow sleeping with wet feet but again in warm weather.
If planning on early spring or late fall paddling under temps 65 and lower consider a semi-dry suit with booties.
A properly fitted wetsuit
should be tight to prevent cold water from flushing in and out of the suit. Since water conducts heat, keeping the cold water out will help keep you warm. It is the neoprene that provides the insulation, not the water. Obviously, the best way to keep water away from your body is a drysuit.
There have been lively debates on whether to wear layers underneath the neoprene. Personally I find it more comfortable to wear a rashguard layer underneath my wetsuit, others go commando. It’s really personal preference.
Neoprene shoes/socks provide great insulation, but will fill with water if the top goes underwater. I always wear wool socks under my Boundary Boots since I am unlikely to get water in those, and it keeps my feet nice and warm. For low cut shoes or socks I’ll usually skip the wool socks because I hate sloshing around with soggy feet.
The common misconception is…
…that somehow having a layer of water between neoprene and one’s skin provides extra warmth. This is absolutely false! Neoprene is warmest when it’s kept dry. Water transports heat from your body 25 times faster than air, so moisture is a disadvantage, period.
Neoprene will provide insulation DESPITE being wet, because of the gas bubbles trapped in the material. However, if it’s so loose fitting that water readily flushes through, that insulation is lost.
Wool under neo booties good
Agree with one above, soggy feet where the water is cold also get cold more easily than you think. And full out wool has a curious quality, it retains a significant amount of its thermal qualities even when wet. It also may itch and weighs a ton, hence the move to other materials for much of the body. But I find neither of these to be an issue on my feet under neo booties.
Also, remember that people are now talking about water temps into the 40's in the northeast, in the inland lakes and rivers where the chillier nights have a faster effect than in the ocean. Personally that is where neoprene fails me, and many I know. Once you shoot past the 50's a lot of people find dry wear is the only way to stay warm.
All that said, I just rechecked to see if my memory was correct and spotted two things which suggest you should not go nuts buying a lot of cold weather stuff quite yet - just enough to get by. And paddle conservatively this fall. The first is that you are paddling out of Chicago - where a dry suit is in peoples' future if they stay at it long enough in a kayak. The other is that you are just getting your feet wet, so to speak, with kayaking.
Yes, there are are people who extend their kayaking season in chillier weather with neoprene paddle wear. Some of them are from the west coast with water that stays in the 50's and some have far more resistance to cold than the skinnier old farts I paddle with. But I bet if you did a straw pole of how paddlers in your area go into colder weather, you would find most hands in the aira for a dry suit.
The cost of accumulating many layers of neoprene can add up to the coast of a decent breathable dry suit. I know, I've done it. Less than one with a full replacement warranty, but same as a used suit that will keep you fairly dry and comfortable while you are making up your mind about the other.
I would also suggest that you hook up with a group in your area and get some pool sessions on basic rescues and bracing, prep for rolling, over the winter. It should be possible in Chicago. Tell your wife that you are doing this in lieu of spending lots of money on boats and gear, so that you don't get to early summer and realize you should have gotten something else. It is not easy to explain just how wet kayaking can be until you are in the water trying to get back into a skinny boat. A heated pool is a much more pleasant way to find out than outside in the early spring.
It is a common misconception…
BECAUSE every website I’ve visited trying to learn about and understand all the different options for cold-weather kayaking gear explain that as how neoprene works!
Everywhere I go to read up on how neoprene works explains it as thus:
- Neoprene is a closed-cell foam insulator.
- Neoprene clothing should be tight-fitting and worn directly against the skin.
- Neoprene keeps you warm by trapping a very thin layer of water between the neoprene and your skin.
- Once the neoprene is wet and has trapped this thin layer of water, it prevents any more (cold) water from circulating in/out of the suit.
- Your body heat will warm this thin layer of water that is trapped against your skin, and this thin layer of water and the neoprene will help insulate you from the cold.
Is this NOT how neoprene works? Isn’t that why once neoprene gets wet you have to keep it wet in order to stay warm?
Both
A neoprene wetsuit provides warming for both reasons - the air trapped in the neoprene bubbles and the thin water layer.
Once your body has warmed the tiny volume of water next to the skin, it stays warm because it is insulated from the surrounding cold water by the neoprene/gas bubble layer. If the suit is too loose, the volume of water is too great and may even convect away the body, taking your thermal energy with it. So a wetsuit should be close-fitting.
It's true that a wetsuit would still work well if the water was not next to the skin, the insulation of the wetsuit would be enough. But it works well enough with the thin water layer that there isn't much effort put into making them waterproof. The tight fit replaces the need to be waterproof.
On the other hand, a drysuit keeps the water away from the skin, but the waterproof material has no inherent insulating qualities. So you have to wear insulation under a drysuit in cold conditions.
The statement that water transports heat X times faster than air is true, but only if the water is free to circulate away from the heat source, carrying the thermal energy away with it.
BNystrom is corrrect
Water does nothing to improve the insulating qualities in this case. It's physically impossible for the explanation that's typically given for this insulating process to be true. I've never worn a wetsuit in the sorts of conditions where this would matter (I use a dry suit), but when wearing neoprene gloves I've found that they keep my hands much warmer when they are not wet than when wet. If you really have noticed that you must keep your wetsuit wet to "stay warm", I'd guess there might be one or two explanations for the "feeling" (not the reality) of that sensation. First, if the water hasn't been there long (suit is freshly dunked), it might easily be warmer than the air, or warmer than water that's been there long enough to be cooled. Also, a large quantity of unchilled (so far) water will provide a heat sink that buffers the immediate chilling effect of evaporative cooling at the surface of the material. Note that this isn't permanent protection from that method of cooling, but slowing the process down would make it feel as such.
I agree
I’m not disputing Brian’s contention that dry neoprene is going to help you feel warmer than wet neoprene. Pretty much anything kept dry is going to feel warmer than anything that has taken a dunk.
My confusion is with his statement that it is a misconception that neoprene insulates you by trapping a thin layer of water that is kept warm by your body heat and preventing additional water from flushing in/out. I thought that was the whole design element of neoprene; how it’s supposed to work. Why else is it called a “wet suit”?
When you do a Google search on the phrase “How does neoprene keep you warm?”, every search result explains it as I stated in my previous post.
https://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome-psyapi2&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8&q=how%20does%20neoprene%20keep%20you%20warm
I’m not trying to start a big debate on how neoprene works. I just think there may be an apples/oranges comparison going on with Brian’s statement. I agree that neoprene will feel warmer if it stays dry vs. if it gets wet. What I was getting at is the details of how neoprene helps keep you warm when it IS wet.
I think in that case, …
… what they are probably saying is that trapped water will insulate better than water which can easily travel around beneath the suit. If you can’t keep the water out, you can at least minimize heat loss by preventing the water from moving around, and since that can only be done by minimizing the space it can occupy, that has the added benefit of reducing the water volume too.
I don’t think the presence of water is considered desirable, only unavoidable. Someone posted here once that the very best custom-fitted diving wetsuits keep a person warmer than standard wetsuits by keeping them “almost” dry, just because they fit extremely well. Maybe someone here with direct experience with such suits would know more.
Heating packets differ
I suspect what you used is the disposable type that contains powder in a porous bag. That kind seems to generate moisture even when it’s placed in a totally breathable item, such as a knit mitten. I hate them.
Another type of heating packet, reusable, looks like clear gel inside a waterproof plastic bag with a dime-sized metal disk inside. You squash the thing and the metal reacts with the gel, giving off warmth. To reuse it, you boil the packet. These things can get really hot and you wouldn’t want it directly on your skin. But they don’t “sweat” like the disposables do.
The less water inside, the warmer it is
Neoprene wear is warmest before ANY water gets inside. If the amount of water entering is very small, the body can warm it, thanks to neoprene’s insulation from the surrounding water. But the trapped water does not warm the body…it’s the other way around!
On the flip side, which I have experienced, if you are wearing a full wetsuit for roll practice on a hot day in warm water, the body will still warm any water that gets in. Then, when you let out the heated water, you feel cooler.
Body temp runs about 98.6 deg. F. I’ve never paddled anywhere that the water was even close to being that warm.
It’s all a mute point anyway
since most paddlers wear Farmer John wetsuits, which aren’t very good at keeping water out. A full wetsuit like those worn by divers would be more effective at keeping you warm.
Moving past the neoprene debate…
I went through this same cold-weather footwear dilemma a few weeks ago when I was trying to decide on winter paddling clothes for here in the Chicagoland area. If I had the extra funds, I would have just picked up a nice full dry suit and been done with it. However, those are significantly out of my price range right now. Still, dry suits keep you dry, but they don't keep you warm. You still need to wear insulating layers underneath.
I did a lot of researching and reading up on dressing for cold-weather paddling. I researched not just what paddlers wear in cold weather, but also what folks in other hobbies and lines of work wear to stay warm (e.g. hunters, fishers, construction workers, etc.). The main thing I found was dressing in layers, and that includes your feet.
I settled on Carhartt liner socks and Dickie's thermal wool socks. To keep your feet warm, the main thing you want to do is keep them dry. Like a base layer for the rest of my body, the liner socks will wick moisture/perspiration away from my feet. The thermal wool socks over the liner socks will provide additional insulation.
Much like layering for the rest of your body, to keep warmest and driest, you should top it all off with a windproof/waterproof/breathable shell. Unfortunately, this is where I have failed so far. I definitely want to get a top layer, especially something waterproof to keep everything underneath dry for those rare occasions when I need to step in the water. However, I haven't found anything sufficient yet. I picked up a pair of waterproof Honeywell NEOS overshoes to wear over my water shoes. These work very well at keeping water out. The only problem is they are not breathable. So, it traps all the perspiration and moisture. By the end of a 2-3 hour paddle, my socks were pretty damp from the perspiration and condensation. Luckily, I'm not experiencing freezing temps yet when I'm paddling. Otherwise, damp socks are not going to keep my feet very warm!
What I would like to get are a pair of Gore-Tex socks to wear as the top layer; GT being waterproof AND breathable. Unfortunately, GT socks are hard to come by. The ones I've found mentioned most often online are Rocky GT socks, but they're a bit on the pricey side; about $50 depending on which size I decide to get. I'm leaning towards picking up a pair, but haven't committed yet. I'm still trying to figure out if that is my best option.
I had looked into neoprene booties at first, but that's when my understanding of how neoprene works made me give it a pass. I'm looking for a top-layer sock to keep the water out, and I was/am under the impression that wearing a neoprene sock/bootie anywhere other than as the first layer directly against your skin will allow more water to seep in. So, I guess my question is: is neoprene truly waterproof? If you were to wear it as a top layer over all your other layers, will neoprene keep you dry? Is it also breathable? If so, then I may consider looking at neoprene booties.
Neo is wet wear
and helps retain body warmth while it is wet. Dry wear does the same by keeping you dry (with the right layers). In paddling clothing, it is that simple.
I would not worry about breathable feet myself. Wiggle your toes on a regular basis and use pedaling to aid your forward stroke, movement is probably the most important consideration for feet. If you don't move your toes and feet some, they will be cold no matter what you have on them.
That said, when you start looking at scuba gear, a not bad source for things like winter mukluks, you will start seeing separates for feet and hands that are labeled dry wear. In that case there is a membrane that will keep you dry, as long as things are well mated with the gaskets in your dry suit or cinched tightly enough. The minute that seal is gone so is the dry assurance. But there is likely an argument that the dry membrane keeps you warmer than if it wasn't there.
Neo scuba gear comes in greater thicknesses than the usual paddling wear, since you are immersed in water as a constant and the requirements for freedom of movement are less. That translates into the dry gloves often being a major PITA to get on without a second person helping. If you want a lot of warmth with more ease of assembly, pogies are the way to go for paddling in really cold weather.
Surf wet wear is more often full body, with areas that are thicker and thinner neo to protect the body core, and often some wind blocking layer in the torso. As above, they are a completely different thing than the usual paddling wetsuit. The really good ones can cost as much as a lower end dry suit or a used suit. In places where the water is kind enough to stay in the 50's, or for people with a lot more tolerance for cold than me, they can be a great alternative.
If anything has a zipper, water can get in through a zipper. Not having a zipper eases that issue, but also makes for a harder time getting stuff off at the end of a paddle on a cold day.
I go back to what I said before, you need to get into a pool before you spend a lot of money on cold water clothing. Your expectations are unrealistic, for example thinking that in the case of immersion your feet will stay dry with anything other than goretex or latex booties on at least a very well sealed pair of dry pants. If the water level is below the tops of your boots you have a chance, but if any waves show up when you are launching or taking out you will have wet feet. There are individuals who have found that Kokatat's two piece sytem with a bib keeps their body dry, and while they do little for me in a swim there are folks who find that a neoprene neck gasket is pretty dry. So there is some wiggle room depending on the individual. But you really should not be spending a full ride on cold weather clothing until you have some time simply getting wet in something like pool practice.
here’s the thing
Even then it doesn’t matter much. Unless you’re swimming or diving. Because your body is always going to be wet, as neoprene doesn’t breathe well if at all. So that film of water will always be there, it’s called sweat.
What matters is whether the material is wet, and what the exposure is on the outside of the material.
Cold weather paddling…
Thank you for all your info and your advice, Celia. It is greatly appreciated! I agree that in all practicality, I would be better served practicing my kayaking techniques in a pool over the winter than running out half-cocked buying up cold-weather paddling gear.
Here’s the thing:
I’m new to kayaking, and as such, I’m not doing any paddling that would be considered all that risky. While there is always some risk inherent in any waters that you paddle, I pretty much stick to slow, flat water. Currently, I get out on the water once a week on the weekend. I paddle the exact same small, flat, slow (VERY slow)-moving river every week. This river may as well be considered a large pond with as slow as it is. I paddle the exact same route on the same river every week. Yes, I know. It sounds very boring, but this is my Zen; my “get away from it all” for a couple of hours.
I paddle a very wide, super stable rec kayak (Pelican Trailblazer 100). Now, I’m not relying solely on my gear to keep me from taking a swim. And I know you should always dress for the possibility of taking a swim. However, with the water I paddle regularly, the chances for immersion are pretty slim. If it ever did happen, I could pretty much stand up and walk to one bank of the river or the other. There are no rapids in the section of river I paddle. So, there are no water features that would cause me to spill. Any dunk I take would have to be the result of pure stupidity on my part. Thankfully, I’m still very risk-averse in my paddling ways at the moment!
Another consideration in my paddling decisions is the S.A.F. (Spouse Approval Factor). I have OHD (Obsessive Hobby Disorder). Yes, it’s a made-up psychological disorder, but it pretty much fits me perfectly. I have a tendency to get really caught up and obsessed with my hobbies, spending lots of time and money obsessing over them. And then I eventually move on to another hobby. Even though I swear my new love for paddling is one that I am finally going to stick with, my wife is still VERY reluctant to let me spend any significant amount of money on paddling gear. So, I have to make choices. Do I: a). Spend a good sum of money and time on advanced paddling courses in a pool over the winter, or b). Spend a minimum amount of money on some clothing that will let me continue my weekly paddling ritual as late into the cold-weather season as possible?
In my wife’s mind, taking paddling courses would probably mean a few things: 1). I’m looking to get into more adventurous paddling, 2). More adventurous paddling means needing a better kayak and more gear (i.e. spending more money), 3). More adventurous paddling means spending more time away from the wife and kids on adventurous paddling trips (and spending more money on the trips and their preparation).
Whereas, spending a little bit of money on some cold-weather clothing simply means I can just keep doing what I’ve been doing for a little while longer. At least until the water freezes over.
At the moment, I’m quite content with my weekly paddling ritual. There’s still plenty to see and experience, and it’s very relaxing. I know someday I will want to move forward and experience more advanced/adventurous paddling, especially as I watch more and more YouTube videos on expedition or even whitewater kayaking. But this is good enough for now. Well, it HAS to be good enough for now as I don’t have much of a choice on spending extra money on higher-end, more advanced kayaking gear.
Maybe in a year or two, once I have more paddling experience under my belt and I’ve grown completely bored of slow, flat-water paddling, then I’ll look into the more advanced stuff. For now, I just want to keep my feet as warm and dry as possible during my simple cold-weather outings.
thanks, ski season is approaching!
Yes, I had the crappy grain-filled versions.
I absolutely LOVE the gel heating packs!
I have several of them that I use in the winter when driving in my electric vehicle. I drive my EV to and from work every day. In the winter, using the heater in the car drains the battery pretty quick. So, to conserve my range, I use the heater as little as possible. Of course, this requires taking additional measures to stay warm during my commute. So, I layer up and use those gel heating packs with the little metal disk in them. I “snap” the disk and am mesmerized by the chemical reaction that takes place. It’s pretty cool to watch! These things get really warm and keep me toasty during my commute. The only hassle is with having to boil them to reuse them. But at least they ARE reusable, which is awesome!
So, this is another reason why I’m trying to be very picky with the cold-weather paddling gear I buy. I’m also trying to find ways to make it multi-purpose and use it to keep me warm both when I’m paddling and also in my car, if possible. If I can make the case that I can use my cold-weather paddling gear outside of paddling, I’m more likely to get the nod of approval for its purchase!
Chota has dry mukluks
Lots of vendors. Also any scuba shop - I would be surprised if you couldn’t find one in your area. Pretty much the same, dry mukluks.
But over the top of the boot and you still have wet feet. And if they are warm enough for cold weather they will sweat. So wiggle your toes.
As to the spouse issue, I just can’t help there. My husband and I both kayaked and I would never begrudge anyone the money spent to make sure that we both got home safe. Especially in the northeast - an adult has maybe 15-20 minutes to get out of the water and warmed up/out of wet clothing before there is a possibly fatal progression in northern winter temps. Someone mentioned it above - cold water flushes warmth away from the body 20 or 25 times faster than cold air.
More on boots
Mukluk-style boots are great. I wear the more rugged style by Chota which have a laces and a "reasonably" sturdy sole (they are good enough for me to walk substantial distances if need be, though lots of people wish the soles were even sturdier). However, for the OP's type of boat and paddling style, he could do what a lot of canoers do, and just get some tall, lightweight rubber boots to wear over hiking shoes. That'll do the trick, and a person can save at least $100 in the process too, if that matters. All the recommendations for socks (especially wool, usually with a synthetic liner sock beneath) still apply.