The less water inside, the warmer it is
Neoprene wear is warmest before ANY water gets inside. If the amount of water entering is very small, the body can warm it, thanks to neoprene’s insulation from the surrounding water. But the trapped water does not warm the body…it’s the other way around!
On the flip side, which I have experienced, if you are wearing a full wetsuit for roll practice on a hot day in warm water, the body will still warm any water that gets in. Then, when you let out the heated water, you feel cooler.
Body temp runs about 98.6 deg. F. I’ve never paddled anywhere that the water was even close to being that warm.
It’s all a mute point anyway
since most paddlers wear Farmer John wetsuits, which aren’t very good at keeping water out. A full wetsuit like those worn by divers would be more effective at keeping you warm.
Moving past the neoprene debate…
– Last Updated: Oct-24-14 10:05 AM EST –
I went through this same cold-weather footwear dilemma a few weeks ago when I was trying to decide on winter paddling clothes for here in the Chicagoland area. If I had the extra funds, I would have just picked up a nice full dry suit and been done with it. However, those are significantly out of my price range right now. Still, dry suits keep you dry, but they don't keep you warm. You still need to wear insulating layers underneath.
I did a lot of researching and reading up on dressing for cold-weather paddling. I researched not just what paddlers wear in cold weather, but also what folks in other hobbies and lines of work wear to stay warm (e.g. hunters, fishers, construction workers, etc.). The main thing I found was dressing in layers, and that includes your feet.
I settled on Carhartt liner socks and Dickie's thermal wool socks. To keep your feet warm, the main thing you want to do is keep them dry. Like a base layer for the rest of my body, the liner socks will wick moisture/perspiration away from my feet. The thermal wool socks over the liner socks will provide additional insulation.
Much like layering for the rest of your body, to keep warmest and driest, you should top it all off with a windproof/waterproof/breathable shell. Unfortunately, this is where I have failed so far. I definitely want to get a top layer, especially something waterproof to keep everything underneath dry for those rare occasions when I need to step in the water. However, I haven't found anything sufficient yet. I picked up a pair of waterproof Honeywell NEOS overshoes to wear over my water shoes. These work very well at keeping water out. The only problem is they are not breathable. So, it traps all the perspiration and moisture. By the end of a 2-3 hour paddle, my socks were pretty damp from the perspiration and condensation. Luckily, I'm not experiencing freezing temps yet when I'm paddling. Otherwise, damp socks are not going to keep my feet very warm!
What I would like to get are a pair of Gore-Tex socks to wear as the top layer; GT being waterproof AND breathable. Unfortunately, GT socks are hard to come by. The ones I've found mentioned most often online are Rocky GT socks, but they're a bit on the pricey side; about $50 depending on which size I decide to get. I'm leaning towards picking up a pair, but haven't committed yet. I'm still trying to figure out if that is my best option.
I had looked into neoprene booties at first, but that's when my understanding of how neoprene works made me give it a pass. I'm looking for a top-layer sock to keep the water out, and I was/am under the impression that wearing a neoprene sock/bootie anywhere other than as the first layer directly against your skin will allow more water to seep in. So, I guess my question is: is neoprene truly waterproof? If you were to wear it as a top layer over all your other layers, will neoprene keep you dry? Is it also breathable? If so, then I may consider looking at neoprene booties.
Neo is wet wear
– Last Updated: Oct-24-14 12:01 PM EST –
and helps retain body warmth while it is wet. Dry wear does the same by keeping you dry (with the right layers). In paddling clothing, it is that simple.
I would not worry about breathable feet myself. Wiggle your toes on a regular basis and use pedaling to aid your forward stroke, movement is probably the most important consideration for feet. If you don't move your toes and feet some, they will be cold no matter what you have on them.
That said, when you start looking at scuba gear, a not bad source for things like winter mukluks, you will start seeing separates for feet and hands that are labeled dry wear. In that case there is a membrane that will keep you dry, as long as things are well mated with the gaskets in your dry suit or cinched tightly enough. The minute that seal is gone so is the dry assurance. But there is likely an argument that the dry membrane keeps you warmer than if it wasn't there.
Neo scuba gear comes in greater thicknesses than the usual paddling wear, since you are immersed in water as a constant and the requirements for freedom of movement are less. That translates into the dry gloves often being a major PITA to get on without a second person helping. If you want a lot of warmth with more ease of assembly, pogies are the way to go for paddling in really cold weather.
Surf wet wear is more often full body, with areas that are thicker and thinner neo to protect the body core, and often some wind blocking layer in the torso. As above, they are a completely different thing than the usual paddling wetsuit. The really good ones can cost as much as a lower end dry suit or a used suit. In places where the water is kind enough to stay in the 50's, or for people with a lot more tolerance for cold than me, they can be a great alternative.
If anything has a zipper, water can get in through a zipper. Not having a zipper eases that issue, but also makes for a harder time getting stuff off at the end of a paddle on a cold day.
I go back to what I said before, you need to get into a pool before you spend a lot of money on cold water clothing. Your expectations are unrealistic, for example thinking that in the case of immersion your feet will stay dry with anything other than goretex or latex booties on at least a very well sealed pair of dry pants. If the water level is below the tops of your boots you have a chance, but if any waves show up when you are launching or taking out you will have wet feet. There are individuals who have found that Kokatat's two piece sytem with a bib keeps their body dry, and while they do little for me in a swim there are folks who find that a neoprene neck gasket is pretty dry. So there is some wiggle room depending on the individual. But you really should not be spending a full ride on cold weather clothing until you have some time simply getting wet in something like pool practice.
here’s the thing
Even then it doesn’t matter much. Unless you’re swimming or diving. Because your body is always going to be wet, as neoprene doesn’t breathe well if at all. So that film of water will always be there, it’s called sweat.
What matters is whether the material is wet, and what the exposure is on the outside of the material.
Cold weather paddling…
Thank you for all your info and your advice, Celia. It is greatly appreciated! I agree that in all practicality, I would be better served practicing my kayaking techniques in a pool over the winter than running out half-cocked buying up cold-weather paddling gear.
Here’s the thing:
I’m new to kayaking, and as such, I’m not doing any paddling that would be considered all that risky. While there is always some risk inherent in any waters that you paddle, I pretty much stick to slow, flat water. Currently, I get out on the water once a week on the weekend. I paddle the exact same small, flat, slow (VERY slow)-moving river every week. This river may as well be considered a large pond with as slow as it is. I paddle the exact same route on the same river every week. Yes, I know. It sounds very boring, but this is my Zen; my “get away from it all” for a couple of hours.
I paddle a very wide, super stable rec kayak (Pelican Trailblazer 100). Now, I’m not relying solely on my gear to keep me from taking a swim. And I know you should always dress for the possibility of taking a swim. However, with the water I paddle regularly, the chances for immersion are pretty slim. If it ever did happen, I could pretty much stand up and walk to one bank of the river or the other. There are no rapids in the section of river I paddle. So, there are no water features that would cause me to spill. Any dunk I take would have to be the result of pure stupidity on my part. Thankfully, I’m still very risk-averse in my paddling ways at the moment!
Another consideration in my paddling decisions is the S.A.F. (Spouse Approval Factor). I have OHD (Obsessive Hobby Disorder). Yes, it’s a made-up psychological disorder, but it pretty much fits me perfectly. I have a tendency to get really caught up and obsessed with my hobbies, spending lots of time and money obsessing over them. And then I eventually move on to another hobby. Even though I swear my new love for paddling is one that I am finally going to stick with, my wife is still VERY reluctant to let me spend any significant amount of money on paddling gear. So, I have to make choices. Do I: a). Spend a good sum of money and time on advanced paddling courses in a pool over the winter, or b). Spend a minimum amount of money on some clothing that will let me continue my weekly paddling ritual as late into the cold-weather season as possible?
In my wife’s mind, taking paddling courses would probably mean a few things: 1). I’m looking to get into more adventurous paddling, 2). More adventurous paddling means needing a better kayak and more gear (i.e. spending more money), 3). More adventurous paddling means spending more time away from the wife and kids on adventurous paddling trips (and spending more money on the trips and their preparation).
Whereas, spending a little bit of money on some cold-weather clothing simply means I can just keep doing what I’ve been doing for a little while longer. At least until the water freezes over.
At the moment, I’m quite content with my weekly paddling ritual. There’s still plenty to see and experience, and it’s very relaxing. I know someday I will want to move forward and experience more advanced/adventurous paddling, especially as I watch more and more YouTube videos on expedition or even whitewater kayaking. But this is good enough for now. Well, it HAS to be good enough for now as I don’t have much of a choice on spending extra money on higher-end, more advanced kayaking gear.
Maybe in a year or two, once I have more paddling experience under my belt and I’ve grown completely bored of slow, flat-water paddling, then I’ll look into the more advanced stuff. For now, I just want to keep my feet as warm and dry as possible during my simple cold-weather outings.
1 Like
thanks, ski season is approaching!
Yes, I had the crappy grain-filled versions.
I absolutely LOVE the gel heating packs!
I have several of them that I use in the winter when driving in my electric vehicle. I drive my EV to and from work every day. In the winter, using the heater in the car drains the battery pretty quick. So, to conserve my range, I use the heater as little as possible. Of course, this requires taking additional measures to stay warm during my commute. So, I layer up and use those gel heating packs with the little metal disk in them. I “snap” the disk and am mesmerized by the chemical reaction that takes place. It’s pretty cool to watch! These things get really warm and keep me toasty during my commute. The only hassle is with having to boil them to reuse them. But at least they ARE reusable, which is awesome!
So, this is another reason why I’m trying to be very picky with the cold-weather paddling gear I buy. I’m also trying to find ways to make it multi-purpose and use it to keep me warm both when I’m paddling and also in my car, if possible. If I can make the case that I can use my cold-weather paddling gear outside of paddling, I’m more likely to get the nod of approval for its purchase!
Chota has dry mukluks
Lots of vendors. Also any scuba shop - I would be surprised if you couldn’t find one in your area. Pretty much the same, dry mukluks.
But over the top of the boot and you still have wet feet. And if they are warm enough for cold weather they will sweat. So wiggle your toes.
As to the spouse issue, I just can’t help there. My husband and I both kayaked and I would never begrudge anyone the money spent to make sure that we both got home safe. Especially in the northeast - an adult has maybe 15-20 minutes to get out of the water and warmed up/out of wet clothing before there is a possibly fatal progression in northern winter temps. Someone mentioned it above - cold water flushes warmth away from the body 20 or 25 times faster than cold air.
More on boots
– Last Updated: Oct-24-14 12:23 PM EST –
Mukluk-style boots are great. I wear the more rugged style by Chota which have a laces and a "reasonably" sturdy sole (they are good enough for me to walk substantial distances if need be, though lots of people wish the soles were even sturdier). However, for the OP's type of boat and paddling style, he could do what a lot of canoers do, and just get some tall, lightweight rubber boots to wear over hiking shoes. That'll do the trick, and a person can save at least $100 in the process too, if that matters. All the recommendations for socks (especially wool, usually with a synthetic liner sock beneath) still apply.
Chota Mukluk Lites all year round for me
They are waterproof unless you step in water over the top of the boot or swim - then they’re cold and wet. Actually, the top of the boot seals quite well with neoprene wet suit legs, but not with thinner, slicker waterproof layers.
I always wear wool socks under them and even when I sweat a lot, my feet stay warm and most of the moisture comes out of the mukluk in the wool sock.
I always float the boat and step in the water when entering and exiting the boat.
I have found it difficult to fit neoprene or other waterproof socks into booties or water shoes.
I wouldn’t wear goretex socks as the outside layer out of concern of abrasion or punctures when walking before entering the boat. I don’t paddle barefoot or sock-footed.
I hope you find a set up that works for you.
Chota Mukluks will also keep your feet
warm in your EV if wearing wool socks underneath.
Chota Mukluks
– Last Updated: Oct-24-14 1:33 PM EST –
Yeah, I was eyeing the Chota Mukluks, but those are pretty pricey! Also, they're very obvious, as in I couldn't just secretly buy them and wear them without my wife noticing them. That's why I'm still considering the Rocky Gore-Tex socks. They're on the pricey side for socks, but WAY cheaper than the mukluks. Plus, they look like socks. I could pull them on and put my water shoes over them, and no one would ever tell the difference.
As you can probably tell, getting away with gear as cheaply as possible is my modus operandi. Other than a couple of initial high-priced kayaking gear purchases (i.e. PFD and paddle), I'm trying to do everything else as low-cost as possible.
Here's what I have so far for cold-weather paddling clothing:
Base Layer - C9 by Champion Thermal Compression long-sleeve top and pants ($30 total at Target)
Mid Layer #1 (when it's not super cold) - 100% Polyester Fleece long-sleeve pullover shirt ($8 clearance item at Sports Authority) and 100% Polyester Fleece sweatpants ($12 at Target)
Mid Layer #2 (when it's super cold and worn over Mid Layer #1) - Microfleece Onesie Zippered Pajamas. These are SUPER warm and soft and much cheaper than the specialized PolarTec fleece onesies available from paddling outfitters ($50 at Amazon, but used birthday giftcards, so FREE!)
Shell #1 (when it's not super cold or precipitating) - Starter Windproof Jacket and Pants ($30 total at Walmart)
Shell #2 (when it's super cold and/or precipitating, worn instead of Shell #1) - Helly Hansen Men's Voss Jacket and Pants ($90 total at Amazon, but used birthday giftcards, so FREE!)
Footwear - Carhartt Liner Socks 3-pack ($15 at Amazon), Dickies Wool Thermal Socks 2-pack ($9 at Walmart), Honeywell NEOS Villager Overshoe ($60 at Amazon)
Hands - Terramar Thermasilk Liner Gloves ($12 at Amazon), Cabela's GORE-TEX Mittens (already owned these for two years, so FREE for paddling!)
Head - Thermal Fleece Pullover Beanie and Neck Gaiter (already owned these for two years, so FREE for paddling!)
So far, I like all the cold-weather clothing I have for my weekend paddling outings. Most of it was relatively inexpensive (if not free). And since I didn't buy any cold-weather gear that was specific to paddling, I can easily use all of it for other activities. Everything is meant to be layered to keep me warm. Granted, nothing I have would be considered anything close to the water protection a drysuit would provide. I am most definitely going to get wet it I go for a swim. However, with my current style of paddling, all I really need is splash protection. My clothing selections were more geared towards keeping me warm with any water protection being an added benefit.
Gore-Tex socks
IF purchased, the GT socks would be worn as the outermost sock layer, but I’d still wear my water shoes over them. So they’d be protected from abrasions and rocks and such.
Put other socks over the Goretex ones
As yanoer mentioned, it is not a good idea to actually walk on that membrane. It’ll put holes in it. Frankly, I think the best idea you have gotten within how you are doing this is the rubber boot one. I suspect you can argue for a pair of basic slopping around in the rain and mud and similar crap boots for Chicago. At least every spring and late fall.
As to the rest of it, I suspect that if you took a vote most on this board would mention similar clothing with which they started paddling. I know that I and my husband did. It is around, it is cheap and until you get a comeuppance it seems it’ll serve the purpose. But if you paddle long enough, you will likely find a moment of “education”. Our biggest one was within five weeks of going out in our first boats, and others followed. Don’t be surprised if you have such a moment.
Yes, wet suits are wet even if dry
Had purchased an LLBean shorty wetsuit to wear in the pool this winter when I practice wet exits and re-entries. Thought it might offer some protection
against bruising so I don’t look like I was in a brawl, as I did after my first attempts.
A couple of weeks ago (air temp 44F plus a stiff breeze), decided to see if the wet suit would help me stay warm. Donned it, plus a poly shirt, fleece pullover, paddling pants and neo socks. My first mistake was wearing my PFD as I normally do: snug. Was so uncomfortable, had to loosen the bottom straps on the PFD so I could breathe. Never got cold nor did I feel overheated. Just constricted. Only my feet had contact with the water when launching and returning. When I finally got out of my paddling clothes and stripped off the wet suit, it was very wet inside - as were the parts of me it covered.
every year on the 1st cool season paddle
I feel like that little overbundled kid in Christmas Story.
That’s true…
– Last Updated: Oct-25-14 11:55 AM EST –
...although a shorty with snug fitting arms, legs and collar should not allow much water intrusion.
I think a large part of the problem is that most paddlers don't know how a wetsuit is supposed to fit and they end up buying something that's comfortably loose and easy to get on and off. They may not realize that such a suit is nearly worthless as insulation when they're in the water.
BTW, for future reference, the term you want is "moot", not "mute". That's another common mistake. ;-)
I agree, neoprene is uncomfortable
The main issue is that none of the wetsuits I’ve seen is actually designed to be used in a sitting position, probably because it would be harder to put on and uncomfortable when standing. For that reason, the fact that I don’t like stewing in my own sweat and the general lack of versatility of wetsuits compared to dry suits, I won’t wear a wetsuit for paddling. I have a neoprene vest that sees occasional use (generally in pool sessions), but that’s it.
Exactly right
As a former scuba diver, I’ve had experiences with neoprene that many paddlers probably haven’t. It is absolutely warmer when it’s kept dry and diving wetsuits are designed to fit tightly enough that little or no water enters the suit. My own suit only allowed minor leakage at the neck, wrists and ankles; the rest of my body stayed dry. I’ve been in looser fitting (rental) wetsuits and the difference in insulation is dramatic when water is allowed to enter most or all of the suit.
A wetsuit is only called that because it is not completely dry. You can get neoprene dry suits, too. It has the ability to provide insulation DESPITE allowing some water intrusion. The water in a wetsuit requires body heat to warm it, so there is a net loss of heat, even if there is no flushing of water through the suit afterward. However, if water gets in once, more is going to get in the same way, so a wetsuit that allows water in is always going to be less warm than one that doesn’t.
The statement that “once neoprene gets wet you have to keep it wet in order to stay warm” is one of the most absurd things I’ve ever heard. I don’t know where RobbW saw or heard that, but I wouldn’t take advice from anyone who has so little knowledge that they would actually believe such nonsense.