Keeping feet dry is difficult
The problem is that even if you find Gore-Tex socks, if you put a non-breathable boot over them, there is nowhere for the moisture to go. Once the humidity on the outside of the G-T socks is as high as it is inside, there isn’t going to be any moisture exchange and you’ll get just as wet from sweat as you would without the G-T socks. To maintain breathability with G-T socks, you have to wear sandals, breathable water shoes or something similar, and keep your insulating layers inside the socks.
At a very minimum…
– Last Updated: Oct-26-14 11:00 AM EST –
...you need to do some self-rescue training, since despite the fact that the odds are low, you CAN end up in the water. The first unintentional swim I took was in a wide, flat, slow river near my home. Fortunately, the water was shallow and I was able to walk to shore.
I don't mean to be alarmist, but the fact is that there are a lot of paddlers who have died because they "didn't plan to get wet". I've been out in the spring on 40 degree water and had people paddle by on the open New England coast in shorts and T-shirts with no PFDs who actually said this to me when I inquired about their lack of preparation. Had they capsized, there's no way they would have survived without outside help, but of course, they had no way to summon help, either.
I cold weather, your margin for error is drastically reduced. Cold water will immobilize inadequately clothed paddlers very quickly and it will eventually kill. If you cannot afford adequate clothing for paddling in the winter, you really should stay off the water. I'm sure that's not what you want to hear, but it's the hard truth.
If you buy nothing else, find a copy of "Sea Kayaker, Deep Trouble" and read it. It's an eye-opening book that every paddler should read.
Breathable footwear, exactly…
I believe I did state that I’d be wearing my water shoes over the GT socks.
Go for it
I think you will do fine. If you haven’t already, I’d suggest that you spend another $20 on a dry bag where you can keep some dry cloths. In the unlikely event that you take a swim, you will be glad that you did. It’s nice to have some dry socks, and a dry shirt and fleece. You may also find that you don’t need all three layers on milder days. The other layer can go in the dry bag just in case.
On more thing
If you are going to be paddling in winter, ignore your wife’s compaints about the cost of proper cold water gear. I’m sure that she would rather have you alive to be mad at than the alternative.
you will get wet
I was happily paddling along in the back bay the other evening- just noodling along & fishing.
Glass calm no worries- easy peasy right?
Went to put my rod into the left aft holder; missed it. Of course the rod/reel was not on a leash so I leaned over to grab it.
My boat is pretty stable (Ocean Kayak Tetra 12 Angler) but still damn easy to capsize as I discovered. I had been meaning to practice self rescue anyway and found the boat easy to right & re-enter.
To make things even better I managed to capsize again moments after re-entry. No excuse this time just a random dork seizure™ on my part.
Good news is the unexpected practice went well with a fully loaded boat.
My wife laughed her butt off noting (correctly) that it was ironic that I flipped in the back bay when I regularly go out into open water in fairly snotty conditions and keep the hull side down.
Fortunately the water is still unusually warm here in S. California - over 70 degrees. I do always have a dry bag with me with a change of clothing & add’l layers, watch cap, paddling jacket, pants etc. so as to be prepared for both getting dunked & also to have that stuff on hand for when it cools down after sunset since I often go out around 1600 & don’t get back until well after sunset.
Celia & others have made many great points.
Jon
The problem is…
…that none of your chosen clothing will protect you in an immersion situation. You’ll end up completely soaked in a matter of seconds and be weighed down by heavy wet clothing, which makes self or assisted rescue more difficult. I cold water conditions, you’re putting yourself at very serious risk.
A learning experience…
So, I’m obviously an idiot with a lot to learn. Unfortunately, I’m also a stubborn old fart with a tendency towards curmudgeonism once I get an idea stuck in my head and sometimes post sharp-tongued replies when frustrated. I apologize to anyone who may have read my reply yesterday before I cooled down and came to my senses and deleted said reply. I especially apologize to Brian.
So, since I was sorely confused about how neoprene works, I decided to stop confusing myself even more with my dizzying Google researches. I happened to be at LL Bean yesterday looking at winter coats (for non-paddling activities). Chasing after my 2-year-old daughter through the fishing gear section, I noticed they had neoprene gloves on display. I couldn’t resist the temptation to put my “understanding” of neoprene to the test. I tried on several pairs in different sizes, picked out a nice tight-fitting pair that still allowed movement and blood flow, and checked out. (Didn’t actually get what I came for… a winter coat!)
Once I got home last night, I hurried to test these gloves out. I dumped all the ice from the ice maker into a large stock pot in the kitchen sink (it was time to clean out the ice maker anyway). I filled up the pot and gave the water a few minutes to get nice and chilly. Pulling on my new neoprene gloves, I dunked my hands into the water being careful not to go so deep that the water came up over the cuffs.
Holding my hands underwater, within 5 seconds I could feel ice-cold water start to infiltrate the insides. I squeezed my hands into fists and released several times and could feel even more water start to squish in. I could feel water accumulating inside the gloves, especially in the palms of my hands where there was a loose fold when my hands were balled into fists.
At this point, I was starting to get kind of peeved. I had actually been hoping to be proved wrong; that neoprene really is waterproof and my “understanding” of how it works was totally wrong. Instead, it seemed as if the experiment was proving my point. Unfortunately, in the frustration of the moment, I decided to pull off the gloves, run upstairs to my computer, and fire off a hasty reply to Brian in my best 5-year-old “neener neener neener” impersonation. Later in the evening, after much contemplation, I thought better of the situation and decided to delete my comment. (I’m sheepishly hopeful that not too many people actually read it,)
It started to occur to me that there has to be something else going on with my experiment; something more than just me being right. Because, I’ll admit it, I’m rarely EVER right! So, I grabbed the gloves to examine them more closely. Noticing the tightly-sewn seams on the back of the hands and in between the fingers, I wondered if maybe the gloves were simply leaking through the seams rather than the neoprene itself. To test this, I folded the cuff of one of the gloves back over itself to form a cup of sorts, at a spot where it was solid neoprene; no seams. I then filled this “cup” with water and let it set. After awhile, I came back to find the “cup” empty. I felt around the inside of the folded area to see if the water had leaked through. Nope, it seemed to be dry. Where did the water go? Then I noticed on the outside of the glove where the water had been, the glove appeared to be damp farther up the glove. It appears the water wicked up into the material, but never leaked through it. So, this seems to be showing me that neoprene probably is waterproof, but that it may also absorb some water.
Still wondering about the seams, I decided to fill the inside of the glove up with water. Holding the glove upside down and full of water, I immediately saw water starting to leak through at several points. AH HA! So it WAS the seams! Well, now don’t I just feel like an idiot?!?! I think I’m starting to actually understand how neoprene works, for real this time!
Okay, so neoprene itself is waterproof and will keep you dry and insulate you. However, depending on the quality of the neoprene garment, water may be able to infiltrate at weak points, such as seams. A properly-fitted neoprene garment (read as very, very tight) will apply lots of compression and help keep the infiltrating water at bay. Any water that does happen to infiltrate will be warmed by your body heat. As long as water is not constantly flushing in/out of the neoprene garment, this thin layer of water should stay trapped and kept warm by your body heat. Am I starting to get this? At least a little bit?
If I’ve got this right, and it’s the seams on my gloves that are failing and letting water in, I’m kind of upset. Now I have these “waterproof” neoprene gloves with craptastically-leaky seams. How do I go about fixing these? Back to Google! So, I search and search and search some more. From what I found, I could seal the seams with a number of different products. It appears that AquaSeal is a popular product for just this type of thing, along some other wetsuit-specific repair products. Unfortunately, dive shops aren’t all that plentiful near me. I also read a few posts stating that liquid electrical tape could also be used to seal seams. Now, big-box home improvement stores are all over the place near me. And as it turns out, I needed to hit one up for some replacement fluorescent bulbs for the kitchen lighting fixture anyway. So, I picked up a bottle of this liquid goo and am itching to give it a go once my gloves dry out.
Launch socks…
I ordered a pair of Kokotat Launch Socks to wear over my wool and liner socks. I will wear my water shoes over the launch socks. The launch socks are supposed to be waterproof yet breathable. Plus, they come up nearly to the knee and cinch tight over whatever I’m wearing. It’s supposed to be on the cooler side this weekend. So, I’ll get a chance to test the efficacy of my footwear layers. I’ll even purposely step into the chilly water during my take out just to see how it all stands up.
Just to reiterate, I’m not trying to build a “poor man’s” drysuit nor do I expect my layers to protect me as a drysuit would. I’m merely trying to build up a layered system to keep me warm while paddling in colder weather and also protect me from the inevitable paddle splashes.
I’m heeding others’ warnings/advice, too. I will bring along a change of clothes in a dry sack for the unlikely (but still possible) chance that I take a swim. I’m also making some inquiries about local kayak pool courses over the winter. And, yes, I could just ignore my wife’s complaints about the costs of cold-weather gear and make the case that it’s better for me to be around for her to argue with than the alternative. HOWEVER, her immediate retort would most likely be that I could just give up my recently-acquired new paddling hobby. That would both prevent me from an untimely death in the water AND save us lots of money!
Took me a while to see this…
but yes you have it right. 
The only additional point that I would make is that water infiltration through the seams is negligible compared the water that will pore in through the openings at the neck, arms and feet if you actually take a swim in a wetsuit. Sticking your entire hand in the water and letting water flow in through the cuff would be a better example of what will happen - especially in a Farmer John wetsuit designed for paddling where the openings at the neck and arms are huge compared to a diving or surfing wetsuit.
Using icy cold water also gives you an idea why most people who paddle in winter conditions opt for drysuits over wetsuits. Imagine that 30 - 40 degree water poring into the wetsuit. It’s COLD and quickly debilitating. For me in New England, a wetsuit is OK up through late fall when the water temp’s are above 50 degrees. (The rivers around here are in the low 50’s now.) After that, I’ll start wearing my drysuit. The reverse happens in late spring when the water begins to warm and I’ll switch back from my drysuit to my wetsuit. A lot of people skip the wetsuit altogether.
Don’t sweat it
– Last Updated: Nov-01-14 10:03 AM EST –
I never saw the post in question and I've been known to get pretty testy myself.
Besides, like many other people, you've simply fallen prey to the wealth of misinformation posted on the "Interwebs" that's constantly parroted by well-intentioned, but uninformed people. It's always easier to simply accept something you read or are told from a source that claims a degree of expertise than it is to question whether it actually makes any sense.
As for your post above, you've got things pretty much right. I would point out that with neoprene, the thinner it is, the less likely it is to be waterproof, at least for any length of time. The really thin stuff used in some garments is pretty porous and gets worse with age. The 3mm neoprene used in gloves is generally waterproof, but it becomes less so with use due to the stresses, compression and abrasion that occur when paddling. Consequently, even seam-sealed neoprene gloves inevitably leak. If you get more than a season out of a pair before they get porous, you're doing well.
Waterproof neoprene gloves
– Last Updated: Nov-01-14 11:39 AM EST –
I was dumb enough to buy a couple different pairs of neoprene gloves because it said right on the package that they were "waterproof". In both cases, I'm sure the material was waterproof, because the neoprene of my Chota paddling boots hasn't ever leaked (one pair has leaked a bit at the seams after many years of hard use, and I fixed that with AquaSeal), but the gloves themselves sure weren't. The leakage seemed just as bad as with regular cloth, even though it was only due to the seams. The seams of Chota boots are not sealed, but the stitching cinches them pretty tight and they don't need to flex much, and the material is pretty thick. That's not the case with gloves. Sealing the seams of gloves may not be completely effective no matter how careful you are, but it will be interesting to see how it works for you.
Glacier Glove Kenai All-Purpose
Have served me well for years. One pair has a very small leak between the thumb and forefinger.
As with mukluks and socks, all gloves are not created equal.
Managed to seal it all up…
– Last Updated: Nov-01-14 12:43 PM EST –
Thanks for understanding, everyone, while I continue my education. Well, I managed to get all the seams sealed inside and outside. It appears to have worked as my hand-dunked-in-ice-water test showed no signs of immediate leakage. It probably would have been quicker and easier for me to just dunk the whole glove in a container of the sealant rather than painting all the seams as I did. I'm still kind of leery about relying on these gloves, though. It took 3-4 coats of the sealant on the outside seams at the "webbing" between the fingers because everytime I'd flex my fist, it would tear the sealant off that part of the seam. After 4 coats, it seems to have finally taken hold, but I don't know that I trust it.
I'll probably just stick with my Cabela's Gore-Tex mittens. They work fine and keep my hands warm even if they do get a little wet.
At some point down the road, I will probably look at proper dry suits, but not for a while. I can already feel myself being drawn to the more adventurous paddling activities, like expedition kayaking or maybe even whitewater. But that will need a couple years of learning my basics and talking my wife into better gear!
Launch socks worked well
– Last Updated: Nov-03-14 4:31 PM EST –
At the take out after my morning paddle today, I spent about 5 minutes wading around in mid-calf deep water. The Kokotat launch socks kept my feet nice and dry. The air temp when I put in at 6:30am was about 29F. With my cold-weather gear in full effect, I was nice and toasty, even with my outermost layer getting splashed pretty good. However, I need to figure out a better way to keep my feet warm. Even with the liner socks, wool thermal socks, launch socks, and water shoes on, my tootsies still got cold and borderline numb, while the rest of me was very warm. I'm wondering if the issue is the water shoes on top of everything else. They fit pretty tight, and I think maybe the compression is preventing the layering from being effective.
Slush paddler. LOL. did you have to
– Last Updated: Nov-04-14 10:14 PM EST –
wash the insides with "Sink the stink"? Your 'word' picture was so funny, I just had to chuckle. Lesson learned. Hey?
You can’t just cram more socks…
– Last Updated: Nov-05-14 7:43 AM EST –
...into your water shoes - or any footwear for that matter - and expect to be warmer. Circulation is key to keeping your feet warm and overly tight footwear reduces blood flow. You'll probably need a size larger than normal to accommodate additional insulation.
You also still haven't addressed the immersion risk and your other clothing is completely inadequate if you end up in the water. If you think you can just take this lightly, try taking a swim in your clothing and see what happens. There is nothing like a dose of reality to drive home the point that cold water must be taken seriously.
sock question
why don’t they sell socks in threes? I mean, once you lose one, the pair is useless.
Think about it.
Trying different footwear options…
Yep, I understand that constricting my bloodflow by wearing too many/too tight socks and/or shoes won’t help any. So, I’m going to try some different footwear on my next paddle and see if that helps.
Yes, I’m fully aware I haven’t addressed the immersion issue and that my current clothing is inadequate if I happen to take a swim. What can I do about it? Are my only options to either spend upwards of $1,000 on a drysuit or to just give up paddling altogether? Unfortunately, I’m not blessed enough financially to simply drop a grand on a whim for technical gear. (Too bad I wasn’t the MegaMillions winner last night or this whole discussion would be moot!) And I’m not going to stop paddling just because I don’t have full immersion protection.
I understand the risks, and I’m trying to mitigate them as best as I can with what I have. I’d love to be a proud owner of a proper drysuit. But it just isn’t in the cards right now. Neither are dry tops or dry bottoms, which are nearly as expensive (together), yet don’t provide as much protection as a drysuit since they are two pieces. The only things I might be able to afford right now are brand name, paddling-specific “splash” pants and jackets. And other than the labels and the higher price tags, how would those be any better or different than what I’m already using?
Remember, at the moment, I’m just a recreational kayaker. I’m not paddling deep open waters far from shore or civilization. I’m not paddling whitewater or going on long expeditions. I get out on the water once a week on the weekends. I paddle the same slow-moving flat river every weekend (the same section of the same river every weekend, in fact). The river is relatively narrow and pretty shallow (hip-deep or less in all but a few places). If I take a dunk, I can stand up and easily walk to shore. Sure, I’ll be wet and cold, but I don’t have to worry about being immersed in cold water or soaking wet for hours on end until I can either get back to shore or be rescued. I am not putting myself into any situation where it becomes a matter of life or death based on the clothing I’m wearing.
Conspiracy…
The sock manufacturers are in cahoots to force you to buy two pairs. If they sold them in threes, you wouldn’t have a reason to buy the second pair, would you?!