Sock question

Advice
#30

More on boots

– Last Updated: Oct-24-14 12:23 PM EST –

Mukluk-style boots are great. I wear the more rugged style by Chota which have a laces and a "reasonably" sturdy sole (they are good enough for me to walk substantial distances if need be, though lots of people wish the soles were even sturdier). However, for the OP's type of boat and paddling style, he could do what a lot of canoers do, and just get some tall, lightweight rubber boots to wear over hiking shoes. That'll do the trick, and a person can save at least $100 in the process too, if that matters. All the recommendations for socks (especially wool, usually with a synthetic liner sock beneath) still apply.

#31

Chota Mukluk Lites all year round for me
They are waterproof unless you step in water over the top of the boot or swim - then they’re cold and wet. Actually, the top of the boot seals quite well with neoprene wet suit legs, but not with thinner, slicker waterproof layers.



I always wear wool socks under them and even when I sweat a lot, my feet stay warm and most of the moisture comes out of the mukluk in the wool sock.



I always float the boat and step in the water when entering and exiting the boat.



I have found it difficult to fit neoprene or other waterproof socks into booties or water shoes.



I wouldn’t wear goretex socks as the outside layer out of concern of abrasion or punctures when walking before entering the boat. I don’t paddle barefoot or sock-footed.



I hope you find a set up that works for you.

#32

Chota Mukluks will also keep your feet
warm in your EV if wearing wool socks underneath.

#33

Chota Mukluks

– Last Updated: Oct-24-14 1:33 PM EST –

Yeah, I was eyeing the Chota Mukluks, but those are pretty pricey! Also, they're very obvious, as in I couldn't just secretly buy them and wear them without my wife noticing them. That's why I'm still considering the Rocky Gore-Tex socks. They're on the pricey side for socks, but WAY cheaper than the mukluks. Plus, they look like socks. I could pull them on and put my water shoes over them, and no one would ever tell the difference.

As you can probably tell, getting away with gear as cheaply as possible is my modus operandi. Other than a couple of initial high-priced kayaking gear purchases (i.e. PFD and paddle), I'm trying to do everything else as low-cost as possible.

Here's what I have so far for cold-weather paddling clothing:

Base Layer - C9 by Champion Thermal Compression long-sleeve top and pants ($30 total at Target)

Mid Layer #1 (when it's not super cold) - 100% Polyester Fleece long-sleeve pullover shirt ($8 clearance item at Sports Authority) and 100% Polyester Fleece sweatpants ($12 at Target)

Mid Layer #2 (when it's super cold and worn over Mid Layer #1) - Microfleece Onesie Zippered Pajamas. These are SUPER warm and soft and much cheaper than the specialized PolarTec fleece onesies available from paddling outfitters ($50 at Amazon, but used birthday giftcards, so FREE!)

Shell #1 (when it's not super cold or precipitating) - Starter Windproof Jacket and Pants ($30 total at Walmart)

Shell #2 (when it's super cold and/or precipitating, worn instead of Shell #1) - Helly Hansen Men's Voss Jacket and Pants ($90 total at Amazon, but used birthday giftcards, so FREE!)

Footwear - Carhartt Liner Socks 3-pack ($15 at Amazon), Dickies Wool Thermal Socks 2-pack ($9 at Walmart), Honeywell NEOS Villager Overshoe ($60 at Amazon)

Hands - Terramar Thermasilk Liner Gloves ($12 at Amazon), Cabela's GORE-TEX Mittens (already owned these for two years, so FREE for paddling!)

Head - Thermal Fleece Pullover Beanie and Neck Gaiter (already owned these for two years, so FREE for paddling!)

So far, I like all the cold-weather clothing I have for my weekend paddling outings. Most of it was relatively inexpensive (if not free). And since I didn't buy any cold-weather gear that was specific to paddling, I can easily use all of it for other activities. Everything is meant to be layered to keep me warm. Granted, nothing I have would be considered anything close to the water protection a drysuit would provide. I am most definitely going to get wet it I go for a swim. However, with my current style of paddling, all I really need is splash protection. My clothing selections were more geared towards keeping me warm with any water protection being an added benefit.

#34

Gore-Tex socks
IF purchased, the GT socks would be worn as the outermost sock layer, but I’d still wear my water shoes over them. So they’d be protected from abrasions and rocks and such.

#35

Put other socks over the Goretex ones
As yanoer mentioned, it is not a good idea to actually walk on that membrane. It’ll put holes in it. Frankly, I think the best idea you have gotten within how you are doing this is the rubber boot one. I suspect you can argue for a pair of basic slopping around in the rain and mud and similar crap boots for Chicago. At least every spring and late fall.



As to the rest of it, I suspect that if you took a vote most on this board would mention similar clothing with which they started paddling. I know that I and my husband did. It is around, it is cheap and until you get a comeuppance it seems it’ll serve the purpose. But if you paddle long enough, you will likely find a moment of “education”. Our biggest one was within five weeks of going out in our first boats, and others followed. Don’t be surprised if you have such a moment.

#36

Yes, wet suits are wet even if dry
Had purchased an LLBean shorty wetsuit to wear in the pool this winter when I practice wet exits and re-entries. Thought it might offer some protection

against bruising so I don’t look like I was in a brawl, as I did after my first attempts.



A couple of weeks ago (air temp 44F plus a stiff breeze), decided to see if the wet suit would help me stay warm. Donned it, plus a poly shirt, fleece pullover, paddling pants and neo socks. My first mistake was wearing my PFD as I normally do: snug. Was so uncomfortable, had to loosen the bottom straps on the PFD so I could breathe. Never got cold nor did I feel overheated. Just constricted. Only my feet had contact with the water when launching and returning. When I finally got out of my paddling clothes and stripped off the wet suit, it was very wet inside - as were the parts of me it covered.


#37

every year on the 1st cool season paddle
I feel like that little overbundled kid in Christmas Story.

#38

That’s true…

– Last Updated: Oct-25-14 11:55 AM EST –

...although a shorty with snug fitting arms, legs and collar should not allow much water intrusion.

I think a large part of the problem is that most paddlers don't know how a wetsuit is supposed to fit and they end up buying something that's comfortably loose and easy to get on and off. They may not realize that such a suit is nearly worthless as insulation when they're in the water.

BTW, for future reference, the term you want is "moot", not "mute". That's another common mistake. ;-)

#39

I agree, neoprene is uncomfortable
The main issue is that none of the wetsuits I’ve seen is actually designed to be used in a sitting position, probably because it would be harder to put on and uncomfortable when standing. For that reason, the fact that I don’t like stewing in my own sweat and the general lack of versatility of wetsuits compared to dry suits, I won’t wear a wetsuit for paddling. I have a neoprene vest that sees occasional use (generally in pool sessions), but that’s it.

#40

Exactly right
As a former scuba diver, I’ve had experiences with neoprene that many paddlers probably haven’t. It is absolutely warmer when it’s kept dry and diving wetsuits are designed to fit tightly enough that little or no water enters the suit. My own suit only allowed minor leakage at the neck, wrists and ankles; the rest of my body stayed dry. I’ve been in looser fitting (rental) wetsuits and the difference in insulation is dramatic when water is allowed to enter most or all of the suit.



A wetsuit is only called that because it is not completely dry. You can get neoprene dry suits, too. It has the ability to provide insulation DESPITE allowing some water intrusion. The water in a wetsuit requires body heat to warm it, so there is a net loss of heat, even if there is no flushing of water through the suit afterward. However, if water gets in once, more is going to get in the same way, so a wetsuit that allows water in is always going to be less warm than one that doesn’t.



The statement that “once neoprene gets wet you have to keep it wet in order to stay warm” is one of the most absurd things I’ve ever heard. I don’t know where RobbW saw or heard that, but I wouldn’t take advice from anyone who has so little knowledge that they would actually believe such nonsense.

#41

Keeping feet dry is difficult
The problem is that even if you find Gore-Tex socks, if you put a non-breathable boot over them, there is nowhere for the moisture to go. Once the humidity on the outside of the G-T socks is as high as it is inside, there isn’t going to be any moisture exchange and you’ll get just as wet from sweat as you would without the G-T socks. To maintain breathability with G-T socks, you have to wear sandals, breathable water shoes or something similar, and keep your insulating layers inside the socks.

#42

At a very minimum…

– Last Updated: Oct-26-14 11:00 AM EST –

...you need to do some self-rescue training, since despite the fact that the odds are low, you CAN end up in the water. The first unintentional swim I took was in a wide, flat, slow river near my home. Fortunately, the water was shallow and I was able to walk to shore.

I don't mean to be alarmist, but the fact is that there are a lot of paddlers who have died because they "didn't plan to get wet". I've been out in the spring on 40 degree water and had people paddle by on the open New England coast in shorts and T-shirts with no PFDs who actually said this to me when I inquired about their lack of preparation. Had they capsized, there's no way they would have survived without outside help, but of course, they had no way to summon help, either.

I cold weather, your margin for error is drastically reduced. Cold water will immobilize inadequately clothed paddlers very quickly and it will eventually kill. If you cannot afford adequate clothing for paddling in the winter, you really should stay off the water. I'm sure that's not what you want to hear, but it's the hard truth.

If you buy nothing else, find a copy of "Sea Kayaker, Deep Trouble" and read it. It's an eye-opening book that every paddler should read.

#43

Breathable footwear, exactly…
I believe I did state that I’d be wearing my water shoes over the GT socks.

#44

Go for it
I think you will do fine. If you haven’t already, I’d suggest that you spend another $20 on a dry bag where you can keep some dry cloths. In the unlikely event that you take a swim, you will be glad that you did. It’s nice to have some dry socks, and a dry shirt and fleece. You may also find that you don’t need all three layers on milder days. The other layer can go in the dry bag just in case.

#45

On more thing
If you are going to be paddling in winter, ignore your wife’s compaints about the cost of proper cold water gear. I’m sure that she would rather have you alive to be mad at than the alternative.

#46

you will get wet
I was happily paddling along in the back bay the other evening- just noodling along & fishing.



Glass calm no worries- easy peasy right?



Went to put my rod into the left aft holder; missed it. Of course the rod/reel was not on a leash so I leaned over to grab it.



My boat is pretty stable (Ocean Kayak Tetra 12 Angler) but still damn easy to capsize as I discovered. I had been meaning to practice self rescue anyway and found the boat easy to right & re-enter.



To make things even better I managed to capsize again moments after re-entry. No excuse this time just a random dork seizure™ on my part.



Good news is the unexpected practice went well with a fully loaded boat.



My wife laughed her butt off noting (correctly) that it was ironic that I flipped in the back bay when I regularly go out into open water in fairly snotty conditions and keep the hull side down.



Fortunately the water is still unusually warm here in S. California - over 70 degrees. I do always have a dry bag with me with a change of clothing & add’l layers, watch cap, paddling jacket, pants etc. so as to be prepared for both getting dunked & also to have that stuff on hand for when it cools down after sunset since I often go out around 1600 & don’t get back until well after sunset.



Celia & others have made many great points.



Jon

#47

The problem is…
…that none of your chosen clothing will protect you in an immersion situation. You’ll end up completely soaked in a matter of seconds and be weighed down by heavy wet clothing, which makes self or assisted rescue more difficult. I cold water conditions, you’re putting yourself at very serious risk.

#48

A learning experience…
So, I’m obviously an idiot with a lot to learn. Unfortunately, I’m also a stubborn old fart with a tendency towards curmudgeonism once I get an idea stuck in my head and sometimes post sharp-tongued replies when frustrated. I apologize to anyone who may have read my reply yesterday before I cooled down and came to my senses and deleted said reply. I especially apologize to Brian.



So, since I was sorely confused about how neoprene works, I decided to stop confusing myself even more with my dizzying Google researches. I happened to be at LL Bean yesterday looking at winter coats (for non-paddling activities). Chasing after my 2-year-old daughter through the fishing gear section, I noticed they had neoprene gloves on display. I couldn’t resist the temptation to put my “understanding” of neoprene to the test. I tried on several pairs in different sizes, picked out a nice tight-fitting pair that still allowed movement and blood flow, and checked out. (Didn’t actually get what I came for… a winter coat!)



Once I got home last night, I hurried to test these gloves out. I dumped all the ice from the ice maker into a large stock pot in the kitchen sink (it was time to clean out the ice maker anyway). I filled up the pot and gave the water a few minutes to get nice and chilly. Pulling on my new neoprene gloves, I dunked my hands into the water being careful not to go so deep that the water came up over the cuffs.



Holding my hands underwater, within 5 seconds I could feel ice-cold water start to infiltrate the insides. I squeezed my hands into fists and released several times and could feel even more water start to squish in. I could feel water accumulating inside the gloves, especially in the palms of my hands where there was a loose fold when my hands were balled into fists.



At this point, I was starting to get kind of peeved. I had actually been hoping to be proved wrong; that neoprene really is waterproof and my “understanding” of how it works was totally wrong. Instead, it seemed as if the experiment was proving my point. Unfortunately, in the frustration of the moment, I decided to pull off the gloves, run upstairs to my computer, and fire off a hasty reply to Brian in my best 5-year-old “neener neener neener” impersonation. Later in the evening, after much contemplation, I thought better of the situation and decided to delete my comment. (I’m sheepishly hopeful that not too many people actually read it,)



It started to occur to me that there has to be something else going on with my experiment; something more than just me being right. Because, I’ll admit it, I’m rarely EVER right! So, I grabbed the gloves to examine them more closely. Noticing the tightly-sewn seams on the back of the hands and in between the fingers, I wondered if maybe the gloves were simply leaking through the seams rather than the neoprene itself. To test this, I folded the cuff of one of the gloves back over itself to form a cup of sorts, at a spot where it was solid neoprene; no seams. I then filled this “cup” with water and let it set. After awhile, I came back to find the “cup” empty. I felt around the inside of the folded area to see if the water had leaked through. Nope, it seemed to be dry. Where did the water go? Then I noticed on the outside of the glove where the water had been, the glove appeared to be damp farther up the glove. It appears the water wicked up into the material, but never leaked through it. So, this seems to be showing me that neoprene probably is waterproof, but that it may also absorb some water.



Still wondering about the seams, I decided to fill the inside of the glove up with water. Holding the glove upside down and full of water, I immediately saw water starting to leak through at several points. AH HA! So it WAS the seams! Well, now don’t I just feel like an idiot?!?! I think I’m starting to actually understand how neoprene works, for real this time!



Okay, so neoprene itself is waterproof and will keep you dry and insulate you. However, depending on the quality of the neoprene garment, water may be able to infiltrate at weak points, such as seams. A properly-fitted neoprene garment (read as very, very tight) will apply lots of compression and help keep the infiltrating water at bay. Any water that does happen to infiltrate will be warmed by your body heat. As long as water is not constantly flushing in/out of the neoprene garment, this thin layer of water should stay trapped and kept warm by your body heat. Am I starting to get this? At least a little bit?



If I’ve got this right, and it’s the seams on my gloves that are failing and letting water in, I’m kind of upset. Now I have these “waterproof” neoprene gloves with craptastically-leaky seams. How do I go about fixing these? Back to Google! So, I search and search and search some more. From what I found, I could seal the seams with a number of different products. It appears that AquaSeal is a popular product for just this type of thing, along some other wetsuit-specific repair products. Unfortunately, dive shops aren’t all that plentiful near me. I also read a few posts stating that liquid electrical tape could also be used to seal seams. Now, big-box home improvement stores are all over the place near me. And as it turns out, I needed to hit one up for some replacement fluorescent bulbs for the kitchen lighting fixture anyway. So, I picked up a bottle of this liquid goo and am itching to give it a go once my gloves dry out.

#49

Launch socks…
I ordered a pair of Kokotat Launch Socks to wear over my wool and liner socks. I will wear my water shoes over the launch socks. The launch socks are supposed to be waterproof yet breathable. Plus, they come up nearly to the knee and cinch tight over whatever I’m wearing. It’s supposed to be on the cooler side this weekend. So, I’ll get a chance to test the efficacy of my footwear layers. I’ll even purposely step into the chilly water during my take out just to see how it all stands up.



Just to reiterate, I’m not trying to build a “poor man’s” drysuit nor do I expect my layers to protect me as a drysuit would. I’m merely trying to build up a layered system to keep me warm while paddling in colder weather and also protect me from the inevitable paddle splashes.



I’m heeding others’ warnings/advice, too. I will bring along a change of clothes in a dry sack for the unlikely (but still possible) chance that I take a swim. I’m also making some inquiries about local kayak pool courses over the winter. And, yes, I could just ignore my wife’s complaints about the costs of cold-weather gear and make the case that it’s better for me to be around for her to argue with than the alternative. HOWEVER, her immediate retort would most likely be that I could just give up my recently-acquired new paddling hobby. That would both prevent me from an untimely death in the water AND save us lots of money!